Can a Homosexual Make it to Heaven?


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Going to heaven is an attainable thing — Attainable even of the poorest of the poor!

(Luke 6:20-23) “And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh. Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.”

Lazarus, in the parable of the rich man, was able to make it to Abraham’s bosom: representing happiness in heaven with the Father.

(Luke 16:19-23) “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

To the contrary, the rich and the educated that trust in themselves and in their wealth can hardly make it to heaven.

 

(Mark 10:23-24) “And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!”

The rich are admonished by God to trust in Him, and not on their wealth to be worthy of the kingdom of heaven.

(1 Timothy 6:17-19) “Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded; nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”

 

gay01.jpgHomosexuals have made it to the congress and the senate of my home country. The possibility of an empire having ruled by a homosexual is 100 percent.

Homosexuals are human beings. All human beings are product of God’s pro-creative power. What is attainable by ‘normal’ human beings (if homosexuals are considered by others as abnormal) can be equally attained by them, also. But how about making it to heaven? The Bible has this to say:

(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

The verses made mention of ‘effeminate’ or homosexuals, and abusers of themselves with men, but they were accepted in the Church and sanctified through the power of God and the Spirit of Christ.

God wants all men to be saved.

(1 Timothy 2:4) “…who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. RSV

Many a pastor or religious leader of our time has erroneously associated homosexuality with sodomy. They mock homosexuals and condemn them to hell because Sodom was destroyed by God and appointed unto everlasting destruction; but a careful study of the scriptures will reveal to us that homosexuality is not sodomy and sodomy is not homosexuality.

Sodom and Gomorrah were not the only cities destroyed by God as many perceived. Actually, there are more cities surrounding Sodom and Gomorrah that were brought by God to destruction.

(Jude 1:7) “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

The verse says that this cities — including Sodom and Gomorrah, have given themselves to fornication and have gone after strange flesh.

STRANGE?gay02.jpg

Yes, because they have, in their lust, ‘left the natural use of women and burned in their lust one towards another, men with men, and women with women’! THESE ARE NOT HOMOSEXUALS. Homosexuals, in their desire, do not lust with women. Although a homosexual do it with a man, he does not do it with a woman. These people of Sodom and Gomorrah are not homosexuals, but perverts. The parallelism was mentioned by Jude. Observe the two verses:

(Jude 1:6-7) “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

The ‘angels’ mentioned by Jude left their ‘own habitation’ and kept not their first estate, even as Sodom and Gomorrah have left the ‘natural’ and turned into strange flesh. What did these angels do, prompting God to condemn them into eternal fire?

(Genesis 6:1-7) “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”

These sons of God who took the daughters of men as wives are angels! Angels are called in the Bible as ‘sons of God’ singing with joy during the laying of the foundation of the world, when there were no human beings yet.

(Job 38:4-7) “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

Some of these angels sinned against God when they left their first estate and habitation, and mingled with humans, and have produced a hybrid called ‘giants’ in the days of Noah. These angels are the spirits that were imprisoned, to whom Christ, when He died, visited and to whom He heralded His victory over evil, according to Peter.

(1 Peter 3:18-20) “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

The word ‘preached’ used by Peter is ‘kerusso’ in Greek, which means to herald.

kērussō

kay-roos’-so

Of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel): – preach (-er), proclaim, publish. (Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Dictionaries of Hebrew and Greek Words taken from Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance by James Strong, S.T.D., LL.D., 1890.)

As angels can lust with daughters of men, men of Sodom and Gomorrah, because of their overwhelming lust, have sought the angels who visited Lot and wanted to have sexual knowledge of them! These are men, and the angels who visited Lot, also, have male human forms.

(Genesis 19:1) “The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground…” NIV

(Genesis 19:4-8) “…Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” NIV

gay04.jpgThese men of Sodom and Gomorrah are not homosexuals, but perverts! If there are people being condemned by God because of sexual addiction, they are not the homosexuals, but real men and women (if we can call them real) who, because of their sexual perversions, may do ‘it’ with the opposite and the same sex!

(Romans 1:26-27) “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” NIV

There are decent and God-fearing homosexuals. Although, naturally, they have affection for men, but they practice self-control to obey God’s law!

(Titus 2:11-12) “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live selfcontrolled, upright and godly lives in this present age…” NIV

Can these decent and God-fearing homosexuals make it to heaven?

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I BELIEVE THEY WILL!

 

God Bless.
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EFS

95 thoughts on “Can a Homosexual Make it to Heaven?

  1. Oh brother,

    I believe out of love and concern for homosexuals you have written this post.
    And yes, love is the only way they are going to come to Christ and be forgiven.

    However, it must be noted that homosexually is an act of sin just like many other sins. Fornication, idolatry, adultery, theft etc. etc. are just a few that are in the same category.
    Christ came and died for all sin. If the sinner (anyone who sins) comes to Him in repentance, there is forgiveness for their sin.

    I might note that you quoted 1Cor. 6:9-11. To remind you, it says, “but such were some of you”. That is past tense. They were.

    In the end, we must love the homosexual just like any other sinner. If they have not forsaken their sinful life style and come to Christ to be forgiven of their sin, they will not make heaven their home. That’s God’s word, as hard as it may be to swallow.
    God’s grace to you,
    Richard

  2. this was the reply of my friend Nigerian: Bababtunde Dosunmu a muslim I already send this article to him and just waiting for his reply. I thank God for you teaching us and giving answers to the question of those who are mislead.

    hi my friend.
    got your mail after i resumed duty today,thursday.i am a bit puzzled over the reaction of one of your respondent about the sinful acts(regardless of country,races,religious believes..etc)
    the facts remains that it is an act strictly condemned by the scriptures(bible and/or qoran).
    the words of ALMIGHTY GOD remained undoubt.
    rather than we crying for GOD’s forgiveness of some of our human misdeeds,yet,we are trying to paint it and dress it as a widely and popularly committed sins.FOR GOD IS THE MOST PATIENCE AND FORGIVING SUPREME BEING.
    i dont hold any personal grudges against whatever anyone practise/believed in,only that i am looking at it from the perspective of GOD’S wrath onto the people of Lots in sodom/gomorrha.
    God Almighty never made a mistake in creating Adam AND Eve.He knew we all are meant for each other in life.
    please convey my mail to your unidentify fellow.
    THE WORDS OF GOD SHALL COME TO PAST…….

    • yes there are decent and God-fearing homosexuals (who do not practice in a sexual way) but honor God’s law & practice celibacy .I know one personally.He has never had sex with anybody …he tried dating a christian women but it never worked out….he is still a virgin ..he still has female qualities about him & he loves God with all of his heart!!He has never given in to his desires but even if he did it would just show that he is just as human as all of us….we are all sinners forgiven when we repent & believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
      I want to say that what you have stated in this article is that God loves the sinner but hates the sin.The question is do we love our sin more then God?If we love & practice our sin & say we are Christians ……..we are fooling ourselves & showing the world that we are liars & the truth does not abide in us.Can a “gay” person enter heaven?Not a practicing one.Not one who has not repented of his or her sin.So being “gay” in itself is not a sin ….and being “tempted” to do sexual acts is not a sin…..it is when a person “gives into ” those desires (be it in his mind or actuelly does them) that it becomes sin.

  3. If homosexuals accepted and believed the word of God and bear it in their minds and do not do badly things which they did before, then they will be save. (I Corinthians 6:9-11)

  4. Some people who are bashing homosexuals are the one who are committing indecent acts of homosexuality like Ted Haggard.

    Thanks for this very biblical insight Brother Eli. More power to your blog.

  5. I’ve got a problem.

    Let me show first how “homosexual relationships” which seems (I’m unsure) to be:

    Encounter >>> Relationship >>> Interest >>> Friendship >>> Desire >>> Bondage >>> Intimacy >>> Romance >>> Commitment … > more likely leading to > Sodomy plus other sexual perversions which is clear in our doctrines that such acts were wrong.

    Now, “modified homosexual relationships” which seems to be:

    Encounter >>> Relationship >>> Interest >>> Friendship >>> Desire >>> Bondage >>> Intimacy >>> Romance >>> Commitment … plus God (which means, not leading to sodomy plus other sexual perversions)

    To explain how “modified homosexual relationships” works, it goes like this:

    “I personally don’t think our relationship is a hindrance to our service to our Heavenly Lord. In fact, we have every opportunity to do everything He commanded us to do by simply being together. (Anonymous)”

    Bro. Eli, what can you say about that?

  6. I would like to express my deepest gratitude to you, Bro. Eli for tackling this very special issue. I have Christian friends who are homosexuals and I firmly believe that they are more stronger than most men and women, especially those outside the church, when it comes to defending the truth that they have known. I admire these Christians who continually walk toward the path that God wants us to tread. I believe that it’s hard to be a Christian homosexual, especially in this day and age, where temptation is everywhere. But I believe that God entrusted these very special men and women with extraordinary gifts, but these extraodinary gifts come with extraordinary tribulations, ranging from petty name-calling to discriminations and whatnot. But once they prove that they can surpass the temptations and the tribulations that come with their special designations, I believe that it will further prove that they are true men and women in the real sense of the word in God’s wonderful eyes.

    Thank you Bro. Eli.
    We love you.
    We pray for your safety.

    The glory is always God’s.
    🙂

  7. homosexuals can still make it to heaven even though they remain to be a homo. as long as they dont commit fornication or what you are so called “sodomy” they can make it to heaven. in fact, homosexuals had been an instrument by God in propagating His words that’s why im here as a member already. Thanks be to God He used these people to introduce to me His divine words T_T

  8. it is needed to be well explained…otherwise, speculations will be sought here and fro….

    That’s why we need a sensible person to tackle about this things in order for many to be not mislead…

    Thanks to GOD! We had you Bro. Eli…

    We miss you a lot…Wherever you are….

  9. Hello pinch_hopper ! Im not B. Eli but I’d like to share a few thoughts with you. In your model of “homosexual relationships”, you actually never modified the “Christian model”, which makes me think which God do you refer to?
    The god of catholics don’t care about Desire >>> Bondage >>> Intimacy >>> Romance >>> Commitment even among priests and seminarians.

    pinch_hopper said: … plus God (which means, not leading to sodomy plus other sexual perversions)

    Biblically speaking, Christian homosexuals are expected to be clean and holy both in body and in spirit. If they can’t endure a 360 degree change upon baptism in the Church of God, and they can’t learn to have a heterosexual relationship, then the best option will be to remain single. And that’s a brotherly advice I’d like to share with you. It really bothers me that you who claim to be a Christian (in your webpage) can concoct an idea of a homosexual relationship such as this one: Desire >>> Bondage >>> Intimacy >>> Romance >>> Commitment

    Such kind of idea may only spring either from personal experience or from experiences of friends who surround you or the people you know.

    pinch_hopper said: I personally don’t think our relationship is a hindrance to our service to our Heavenly Lord. In fact, we have every opportunity to do everything He commanded us to do by simply being together.

    God’s Word speaks of a man and a woman becoming one…

  10. It does not matter whether you are a straight man or woman, a gay or a lesbian. What matters is your obedience to God’s commandments and your fear in Him. And in the Bible it is clearly stated that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to Him. (Acts 10:34-35 -RSV)

  11. “Train up a chld in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it”

    Proverbs 22:6 ,English Standard Version

    One of the factors,”personal view”,in our present society of degeneration is that the information age overwhelms us humans as to who and what are beneficial. Many are,”most probably”, unaware of the havoc caused by television,internet,the mass media and people indoctrinated by intoxicating beliefs that they teach others unaware or willingly.
    The CHURCH are facing the many likes of these kind and our hope and faith should be firmly rooted by the Undefiled,Pure Doctrine of CHRIST,inorder to survive these evil,perilous time humanity is facing today!

    Scripture:

    But, as it is written,
    “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart imagined, what GOD has prepared for those who love HIM’-

    I Corinthians 2:9 ,English Standard Version

    Yes,people who belong to the “third sex” (coined word) as others would call it. Can,will,may go to heaven!
    What should be done to be able to witness or see what GOD has prepared?

    Scripture:

    “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see GOD”

    Matthew 5:8 ,English Standard Version

    Our HOPE,your hope,every one that is pure in heart shall see GOD in HIS “appointed time”, are our HOPE in GOD and not in the knowledge of men that passeth away!

    Scripture:

    And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of GOD is with man. HE will dwell with them, and they will be HIS people, and GOD HIMSELF will be with them as their GOD”. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

    Revelation 21:3,4 ,English Standard Version

    Indeed, Apostle John wrote what he has seen that we may rest our hope in HIM that is GOD who can never lie!
    notice what the scripture says;
    “….for the former things have passed away.” Amen!

    Believe in the Infallible Truth in Bible! A preacher which none of the perverters can withstand is teaching us today by the Grace of GOD that is in CHRIST.

    Scripture:

    “But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”

    Revelation 21:27 ,English Standard Version

    GOD is calling you and will make known HIS Words to you!

    Scripture:

    “If you turn at MY reproof, behold, I will pour out MY Spirit to you; I will make MY Words known to you.”

    Proverbs 1: 23 ,English Standard Version

    May all,you who seek the Truth,hunger for, find what your pure hearts desire.

    Scripture:

    “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.”

    Matthew 5:6 ,English Standard Version

    May you who desire find learning and rest for your souls

    Scripture:

    “Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.”

    Matthew 11:29 ,English Standard Version

    More Power and GOD Bless in CHRIST to “THE BEST BLOGGER”, to you brother Eli and to them that are pure in heart!

  12. Gay people of the world! Light has shun upon your kind! For so long a time have the proponents of the major religions who claimed that they teach the truth and way to salvation have not only isolated the third sex but
    condemned them of not having any chance of salvation,not even a glimpse of it. I highly recommend you continue to study the teachings of the Bible which is discussed thorough and accurately by bro.Eli and with it read the Bible. Remember, blessed is he that readeth and listeneth and followeth…Rev. 1:3

    • Study, cram, review all they want. There is no such thing as a homosexual Christian.

      I’m sorry but it was not my decision. I am just the messenger.

      It is impossible for a man or a woman to be in the spirit with God while profaning their bodies to Satan.

      That’s basic people. Please stop rolling over so easily. We represent the most high and most powerful force in the entire universe…and then some. THE ONE TRUE GOD!

  13. Hi moris!

    It seems that you misinterpreted my concept of “modified homosexual relationships”. It’s NOT me who made the quoted statement, but that is based from a REAL personal experience of another brethren I knew. Maybe you forgot the open-and-closed quotation marks I used, which you must understand that I got it from another source. (You’ll see how dangerous it is to ommit periods, commas, quotation marks, for this simple error he did made him think that I’m giving myself as an example). Anyway, he’s a brethren (so, it’s not a Catholic god which he worships), and he’s been always asking Him if that kind of relationships is “okay”, but since it is not yet clearly emphasized in our doctrines, he lived with these assumptions.

    Your comment, “It really bothers me that you who claim to be a Christian (in your webpage) can concoct an idea of a homosexual relationship such as this one: Desire >>> Bondage >>> Intimacy >>> Romance >>> Commitment”

    It makes me feel that you’re accusing me of inventing stories (concoct = devise or invent). There should be nothing bothering you for I did nothing that will disprove my claim to be a Christian. I have lots of evidences here (100+ love letters from that homosexual brethren) which I had used to formulate the idea of a homosexual relationship, so it’s highly advisable for you not to rebuke something you don’t know at all. Of course that person also deserves the right of privacy, so it’s improper to show them one by one in public.

    Another comment, “God’s Word speaks of a man and a woman becoming one within the bounds of marriage.”

    Of course I know. Besides, I haven’t said that the homosexual I had mentioned wants marriage to his male partner, simply a commitment to be his lifetime partner, even until the eternity. His male partner is allowed to marry a woman, but they are committed to each other in a way that no matter what happens, they will always be staying together, even with the presence of his partner’s wife.

    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    David and Jonathan (courtesy of Queen_Lyonesse)
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    Granting for the sake of argument, let me ask you how would you explain the relationship of David and Jonathan. Here are those:

    I Samuel 18, 20, 25, 31
    II Samuel 1

    Let’s emphasize II Samuel 1:25-26, “How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”

    Now let’s look what kind of love Jonathan feels to David. Yes, he called him a brother (just like a homosexual treats the one he loved as a brother in faith), but don’t you know what the love he had shown is a feminine love?

    H160
    אהבה
    ‘ahăbâh
    a-hab-aw’
    Feminine of H158 and meaning the same: – love.

    Now let me ask you, if that event happened again (Ecclesiastes 3:15) in this era, is it lawful or not? Biblical answers please…

  14. Well i hope a few friends of mine can read this because they are way out of bounce. They actually have sex with the same gender

  15. Amen,. and i thank God for the informative website like this and We hope that God will always take care for you Bro. Eli for the teachings and the answers for the different issues of faith….

  16. if homosexuals are ruled out in salvation, millions of them would be instantly condemned..
    – some groups ( they even call themselves as christians) are firm on this whimsy

    on a certain demographic which i’ve read

    The New York-based Company, Spare Parts, Inc., which helps companies
    market to gays, estimates that the United States gay and lesbian
    population is between 15 million to 23 million. According to another
    study (Inter@ctive Week, August 30, 1999. Pg. 20.), the US gay
    community consists of over 19 million people with an estimated buying
    power of $800 billion. Worldwide, these figures are much larger.”
    —- source http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=271269 , http://www.gaymarketexpress.com/

    imagine these numbers !! how could some religiously-claimed-groups ignored this facts ….

    this is well written in the Lord’s book —–
    1 Timothy 2:4) “…who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. RSV

    if God give them a fair-chance on salvation..who are we then, not to?

  17. To rjperalta:

    “However, it must be noted that homosexually is an act of sin just like many other sins. Fornication, idolatry, adultery, theft etc. etc. are just a few that are in the same category.”

    I really don’t know if I got it right. Is being a homosexual a sin already? If that’s what you mean – I beg to disagree.

    I have seen homosexuals or people in the third sex following God’s will in the bible. Being homosexual is not a choice nor a sin. If they only have to choose a life, would you think that they will choose a life of homosexual. Being homosexual in the Philippines is so hard – they are experiencing oppressions and mockings from our countrymen. Third sex are considered and treated as third class citizens (except for rich gays – where their money can speak for them!).

    If they act “soft” or feminine is not their choice – it just comes natural to them. Is it already a sin to act like that?

    I believe with strong conviction that, IT IS THE ACTION THAT MAKES A PERSON SINNER – NOT HIS PERSON PER SE. What do I mean?

    Being a MAN or WOMAN (straight as we call it) doesn’t exempt us from commiting sins – the same is true with these homosexual. It’s our act that makes us sinners – if we can strive to walk in God’s path – I believe they can do it as well. For it is the will of the Father to SAVE ALL MEN – if you consider these people as HUMAN – then they are entitled for God’s salvation:

    “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. ” – Gal 3:28

  18. pinch hopper has his own set of doctrines. in all those long hours of my reading the Bible i have not encountered the term “modified homosexual relationship” just like what he is saying. maybe pinch hopper could shed some light with regards to WHERE IN THE BIBLE CAN HE FIND “MODIFIED HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIP”? im just curious though.

  19. Hi quiel!

    Your comment, “pinch hopper has his own set of doctrines. in all those long hours of my reading the Bible i have not encountered the term “modified homosexual relationship” just like what he is saying. maybe pinch hopper could shed some light with regards to WHERE IN THE BIBLE CAN HE FIND “MODIFIED HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIP”? im just curious though.”

    FIRST, I DON’T have my own set of doctrine, neither teaching you what is “Modified Homosexual Relationship”. It was really my question addressed to Bro. Eli, that’s why misconceptions arise for trying to answer somethng which is not your business. I don’t know if you’re well-educated about the word “seems”, which is I am also unsure, that I neither affirm or deny anything (that’s why I cannot shed you light regarding this; only by example of what that homosexual did). Kindly read my post wery well, that you can’t find anything that I am inventing my own doctrine nor teaching about “modified homosexual relationship”. I’m talking about my observations, NOT my teachings.

    SECOND, You can’t really find “modified homosexual relationship” in the Bible, just like you can’t find “metamphetamione hydrochloride” in the Bible. But you must understand the phrase “and such like”, meaning, there are others not mentioned by St. Paul but are having similarities with the ones he mentioned. This time, “modified homosexual relationship” has something to do with “adultery” and “fornication”, a way for satan to make those sins to look more “lesser evil”.

    THIRD, I used to disagree with this “modified homosexual relationships”. I’ve been reprimanding that homosexual brethren a long time ago, but he said, “I personally don’t think our relationship is a hindrance to our service to our Heavenly Lord. In fact, we have every opportunity to do everything He commanded us to do by simply being together (Anonymous).” I have proven that it is WRONG, for I noticed that he stopped attending our gatherings when his boyfriend left him. It’s satan’s new device which I am trying to make you aware of, though I myself cannot completely understand it (for how can I explain “homosexual feelings” without experiencing it first?). Since this is NOT YET an issue during St. Paul’s time backwards (“modified homosexual relationships” is different from “abusers of themselves with mankind” and/or sodomy), we have to be aware that satan “upgrades” his devices to deceive even the elect.

    FOURTH, you should not just read the Bible in just long hours of sitting, but you must also be able to understand it. You want me to find in the Bible “modified homosexual relationship” verbatim, which you seem to overlook I Corinthians 4:6. Remember, NOT ALL truths are written in pen and ink. If you’re still curious about it, I cannot tell completely, for I have not read the heart of that brethren, but I can only base my explanations from his acts.

    LASTLY, You said, “…in all those long hours of my reading the Bible i have not encountered the term “modified homosexual relationship” just like what he is saying…” Since you have read the Bible for long hours, I’ll give the same question from moris to you, if the relationship between David and Jonathan happened again (Ecclesiastes 3:15) in this era, is it lawful or not? Biblical answers please…

  20. Kiesa’s example, “Well i hope a few friends of mine can read this because they are way out of bounce. They actually have sex with the same gender”, is what St. Paul is talking about in I Corinthians 6:9-11 KJV being “abusers of themselves with mankind”, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

    If they will be washed, be sanctified, and be justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God, they have the chance to be saved, just don’t do those things willingly after knowing this truth (Hebrews 10:26-27).

  21. Lets ask a straight-forward question:

    If a man performs anal sex or fellatio with another man, both with mutual consent because of their love and lust for one another, are they deemed as homosexuals and should they be granted a place in heaven or put to death as 1 Romans 1:26-32?

    • I’m not surprised that you asked for comments, demon.

      I’m going to tell everyone else something that you and I already know.

      This person is demon-possessed.

      He doesn’t have a clue that all of those unnatural desires he has are not really his. His reality isn’t his.

      He has some small clue… but not nearly enough to ever break free.

  22. TO PINCH_HOPPER, I CAME ACROSS UR MSGS AND I HAV READ SOME OF THE REBUTTAL BET. U AND THOSE HU DIS-AGREE WID U AND I MUST SAY THAT U GOT IT ALL WRONG!UR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION OF 2SAM.1:26 HAS MADE U CONFUSE MAKING U SAY “BUT SINCE IT HAS NOT YET CLEARLY EMPAHSIZD IN OUR DOCTRINE,HE LIVED WID THESE ASSUMPTIONS”AY! NAKO MAGPADOCTRINA KA ULI BRAD!I SUGGEST U TWO SHUD GO 2GETHER FOR INDOCTRINATION.SAAN BASURAHAN MO NAPULOT YANG ABSURD IDEA THAT IT IS NOT YET CLEARLY EMPHASIZED IN THE DOCTRINE?I SAY U DID NOT GIVE EMPHASIS ON LISTENING INTENTLY TO THE DOCTRINE THAT Y ITS NOT CLEAR TO U AND TO UR HOMO FREND.AND U WERE USING THE HEBREW DICTIONARY?AY NAKO NKAPANGAHAS!HOW DARE U INSINUATED THAT THE 2 OF THEM(DAVID N JONATHAN) ARE HAVING A GAY RELATIONSHIP!AND UR USING THIS VERSE TO SEEMINGLY JUSTIFY THE “MODIFIED HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHP”.YES, LUV IS FEMININE BUT IT DOESNT FOLLOW THAT ITS A “HOMO-LUV”.POOR JONOTHAN!BEING ACCUSED BY HOPPER AS A HOMO,U DID NOT SAY VERBATIM THAT HE’S A HOMO AND HE AND DAVID ARE HAVING HOMO MODIFIED RELATIONSHIP BUT UR INSINUATING AND IMPLYING THAT THEY ARE!ITS SIMPLE ANALYSIS.AND TO PROVE U WRONG PAY ATTENTION TO DETAILS,HOMO OR MODIFIED HOMO AS U CALL IT HAS A “>>ROMANCE>>COMMITMNT” FORMULA WHILE ON THE OTHERHAND DAVID AND JONATHAN HAS A “FREINDLY>>COMMITMNT” SORT OF A RELATIONSHIP GOING ON BETWEEN THEM.THERES NO ROMANCE INVOLVED BETWEEN JONTHAN AND DAVID RELATIONSHIP!JONATHAN SAID THAT THE LOVE THAT HE FELT 4 DAVID WAS PASSING THE LUV OF WOMEN,MEANING,THAT THE LOVE THAT HE FELT 4 PARENG DAVID WAS BEYOND THE LOVE OF WOMEN INFACT ITS BETTER THAN THE LOVE OF WOMEN W/C S EROS(ROMANTIC/EROTIC LOVE) BEC. THE PHILIA(FREINDLY LOVE) THAT THEY SHARE WAS BETTER THAN EROS(EROTIC LOVE).UR MODIFIED HOMO RELATIONSHIP REQUIRES ROMANTIC/EROTIC/SENSUAL SUBSTANCE WHILE FRENDLY BROTHERLY LOVE DOESNT REQUIRE ROMANCE W/C HAPPEN 2 BE THE RELTIONSHIP OF DAVID AND JONATHAN.

  23. to rjperalta

    just wanna comment on what you posted in your comment about homosexuality – “However, it must be noted that homosexually is an act of sin just like many other sins. Fornication, idolatry, adultery, theft etc. etc. are just a few that are in the same category.”…..i believe that your view about this topic is wrong…because being a homosexual alone is not a sin….as long as you are not doing anything wrong or anything against God’s Law, homosexuality alone cannot be considered as a sin…Homosexuals are only considered as sinners if they are doing the things that you enumerated…..hope you understand…just want to share my thoughts bout yours….paolo

  24. long live to all CHRISTIAN GAYS OUT THERE…!!!!!! BE HAPPY….let us continue our service to our Creator…..

  25. May i suggest that those questions raised to Bro.Eli be transferred to Ask Bro ELi Portion, In that section, bro ELi answers querries one by one… I’m also interested how Bro ELi answers your querries Pinch.. Also, your arguments with My Secret Identity..Please copy paste to that section. Thanks

  26. Masculinity, femininity, homosexuality is earthly matters only, these are all deals with the flesh as Lord Jesus Christ said in (Matthew 22:30) ” For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    As what I understand of Brother Eli point of view that:

    “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment”. (John 7:24)

    “But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more”. (Luke:12:48)

    Therefore:

    GOD judge perfectly according to justice, love and faith which specifically according to time, status of life, gender, environment, situation, ranks, generation, knowledge, well-being, and many more.

    So:

    No matter of what is your personality, whether you are masculine, feminine and homosexual you have a chance for an everlasting life as long as you live according to justice, love and faith and following the two greatest commandments which is love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    And you will not like this:

    “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day”. (John 12:48)

    “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness”. (Matthew:23:27)

    EYES

  27. TO RJPERALTA,OH BROTHER! U GOT IT ALL WRONG! HOMOSEXUAL IS NOT NOT AN ACT OF SINNING ITS A GENDER U KNOW.DID U KNOW THAT U CAN BE GAY WITHOUT DOING THE ACTS OF SIN,FEELING LIKE GIRL SINCE BIRTH IS NVER A SIN,ITS NATURE,ITS GENETICS!AND IT HAS BIN PROVEN BY SCIENCE ALSO.SO ITS A REALITY THAT ANY1 COULD BE A HOMO W/O HAVING THE LIBERTY TO CHOOSE IF HE DOESNT WANTS TO BE ONE.INFACT I’VE SEEN AND HEARD AND TALK TO PIPOL HU WER BORN HOMO ,MEANING, THEY BECAME HOMOS W/O ANYBODY INFLUENCING THEM TO BE ONE.AND IF U WER TO ASK THEM IF THEY WANT TO B A HOMO?THEY’LL ANSWER U THAT THEY DNT WANT TO BE A HOMO BUT THEY JUST COULDNT HELP FEELING WAT THEYRE FEELING BEC ITS GENETICS.ST. PAUL WAS TRYING TO POINT OUT THAT THOSE EFFEMINATE HU WWER MAKING OUT WID MALES AND MALES HU WERE MAKING OUT WID MALES WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE IT TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.MEANING, THE ESSENSE OF HIS STATEMENT WAS SEXUALLY PERVERTED HOMOSEXUALS AND MALES CANNOT ENTER THE KINDOM OF GOD. 1COR.6:9-10 DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD?DO NOT BE DECEIVED;NEITHER THE IMMORAL,NOR IDOLATERS,NOR ADULTERERS,NOR”SEXUAL PERVERTS”,NOR THEIVES,NOR THE GREEDY,NOR DRUNKARDS,NOR REVILERS,NOR ROBBERS WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.=RSV=

  28. Lets go back to the bible, (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

    Effiminate means Homosexuals…
    Simple, there will be no Homosexual in heaven.
    They will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    Why? because its a sin.

    In this late time, God still love us.
    Homosexuals, just like the adulterers, thieves, extortioners, idolaters, has still the time to change.

    God’s love the people, but not the wrong doing.
    Before the Lord put His wrath again to these wicked people, Repent, and seek God to help you to change.
    No turning back to the wrongdoing…

    Peace.

  29. Hi james!

    Your comment, “TO PINCH_HOPPER, I CAME ACROSS UR MSGS AND I HAV READ SOME OF THE REBUTTAL BET. U AND THOSE HU DIS-AGREE WID U AND I MUST SAY THAT U GOT IT ALL WRONG!UR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION OF 2SAM.1:26 HAS MADE U CONFUSE MAKING U SAY “BUT SINCE IT HAS NOT YET CLEARLY EMPAHSIZD IN OUR DOCTRINE,HE LIVED WID THESE ASSUMPTIONS”AY! NAKO MAGPADOCTRINA KA ULI BRAD!I SUGGEST U TWO SHUD GO 2GETHER FOR INDOCTRINATION. SAAN BASURAHAN MO NAPULOT YANG ABSURD IDEA THAT IT IS NOT YET CLEARLY EMPHASIZED IN THE DOCTRINE?I SAY U DID NOT GIVE EMPHASIS ON LISTENING INTENTLY TO THE DOCTRINE THAT Y ITS NOT CLEAR TO U AND TO UR HOMO FREND.AND U WERE USING THE HEBREW DICTIONARY?AY NAKO NKAPANGAHAS!HOW DARE U INSINUATED THAT THE 2 OF THEM(DAVID N JONATHAN) ARE HAVING A GAY RELATIONSHIP!AND UR USING THIS VERSE TO SEEMINGLY JUSTIFY THE “MODIFIED HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHP”.YES, LUV IS FEMININE BUT IT DOESNT FOLLOW THAT ITS A “HOMO-LUV”.POOR JONOTHAN!BEING ACCUSED BY HOPPER AS A HOMO,U DID NOT SAY VERBATIM THAT HE’S A HOMO AND HE AND DAVID ARE HAVING HOMO MODIFIED RELATIONSHIP BUT UR INSINUATING AND IMPLYING THAT THEY ARE!ITS SIMPLE ANALYSIS.AND TO PROVE U WRONG PAY ATTENTION TO DETAILS,HOMO OR MODIFIED HOMO AS U CALL IT HAS A “>>ROMANCE>>COMMITMNT” FORMULA WHILE ON THE OTHERHAND DAVID AND JONATHAN HAS A “FREINDLY>>COMMITMNT” SORT OF A RELATIONSHIP GOING ON BETWEEN THEM.THERES NO ROMANCE INVOLVED BETWEEN JONTHAN AND DAVID RELATIONSHIP!JONATHAN SAID THAT THE LOVE THAT HE FELT 4 DAVID WAS PASSING THE LUV OF WOMEN,MEANING,THAT THE LOVE THAT HE FELT 4 PARENG DAVID WAS BEYOND THE LOVE OF WOMEN INFACT ITS BETTER THAN THE LOVE OF WOMEN W/C S EROS(ROMANTIC/EROTIC LOVE) BEC. THE PHILIA(FREINDLY LOVE) THAT THEY SHARE WAS BETTER THAN EROS(EROTIC LOVE).UR MODIFIED HOMO RELATIONSHIP REQUIRES ROMANTIC/EROTIC/SENSUAL SUBSTANCE WHILE FRENDLY BROTHERLY LOVE DOESNT REQUIRE ROMANCE W/C HAPPEN 2 BE THE RELTIONSHIP OF DAVID AND JONATHAN.”

    It makes me feel that you’re just posting that one to accuse me. Have I interpreted II Samuel 1:26? I believe I’m just asking in my statement.

    I’ve used Strong’s Hebrew dictionary, and the word “love” is of the feminine one. But still, I did no mention that David and Jonathan is having a gay relationship neither “modified homosexual relationship”. Don’t put words in my mouth, brother.

    I’ve been attending our indoctrinations many times, but I haven’t heard a doctrine regarding the romantic feelings of a male to another male. What I know is, sexual activities of homosexual partners are UNLAWFUL. I’m also advising you to attend our indoctrinations again, now that Bro. Eli himself administer the indoctrination, so that you will not react aggressively to something not of your business.

    It seems that your assumptions are based from a reckless judgment about my statements/questions. I see your effort in passing me the blame that I accuse David and Jonathan for having homosexual relationships. A thing I noticed is, why try interpret Jonathan’s feelings by your own? It is Jonathan who felt that, and what we only have here is the Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary, that the love he felt is something feminine.

    Your reckless comment would give the homosexual a good excuse for him to discriminately treat the one he loved; he may say, “I’m just doing ‘good’ things to my ‘pare’ and I see there’s nothing wrong with that! Kung utos na mahalin pati kaaway, eh lalo na yung taong mahal ko.”

    Now, if that homosexual brethren will express “‘ahăbâh” love for me, is it lawful or not?

    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    Hi Ronald,

    Your suggestion, “”May i suggest that those questions raised to Bro.Eli be transferred to Ask Bro ELi Portion, In that section, bro ELi answers querries one by one… I’m also interested how Bro ELi answers your querries Pinch.. Also, your arguments with My Secret Identity..Please copy paste to that section. Thanks”

    Good suggestion, but I think there’s no need for us to do it for he had already read about it. Our discussion with ‘My Secret Identity’ may be a factor for Bro. Eli to post this topic.

    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    PS.

    Though I am a bit frustrated that replies for my posts seems too hard to comprehend (for not all commentators here are well-versed in the English language), I will just give way, assuming that my brother is better than me (Philippians 2:3) and to let myself suffer being defrauded (I Corinthians 6:7). The way posters reacted about a TRUE case of “modified homosexual relationships” makes me think that people here are all not ready for it, though I had witnessed it in my very own eyes. My job to inform you about it (I Titus 5:20; James 4:17) is over and I believe Bro. Eli’s post is enough.

    Bro. Eli, I’m sorry for everything I had posted here. I should have asked you about my queries in private so that brethren will not stumble about it. I NEVER intended to invent my own set of doctrine nor to draw a fictitious story in the clouds, so whatever trouble I had made here, I’m here to apologize.

  30. correction:

    “My job to inform you about it (I Titus 5:20; James 4:17) is over and I believe Bro. Eli’s post is enough.”

    should be

    “My job to inform you about it (I Timothy 5:20; James 4:17) is over and I believe Bro. Eli’s post is enough.”

  31. hi pinch hopper!

    it’s never been in my character to say something which i am very much unsure of and please allow me to analyze your posts here.

    FIRST. the term “modified homosexual relationship” came from YOU, in fact, YOU EVEN GAVE A ROUGH DEFINITION OF WHAT IT MEANS

  32. hi pinch hopper

    let me just finish my post because my internet speed is fluctuating.
    FIRST. the term “modified homosexual relationship” came from YOU, in fact, YOU EVEN GAVE A ROUGH DEFINITION OF WHAT IT MEANS by saying and i quote you:”Let me show first how “homosexual relationships” which seems (I’m unsure) to be:

    Encounter >>> Relationship >>> Interest >>> Friendship >>> Desire >>> Bondage >>> Intimacy >>> Romance >>> Commitment … > more likely leading to > Sodomy plus other sexual perversions which is clear in our doctrines that such acts were wrong.

    Now, “modified homosexual relationships” which seems to be:

    Encounter >>> Relationship >>> Interest >>> Friendship >>> Desire >>> Bondage >>> Intimacy >>> Romance >>> Commitment … plus God (which means, not leading to sodomy plus other sexual perversions)”. YOU EVEN DESCRIBED HOW YOUR TERM “MODIFIED HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIP” WORKS by saying and i quote you:”To explain how “modified homosexual relationships” works, it goes like this:

    “I personally don’t think our relationship is a hindrance to our service to our Heavenly Lord. In fact, we have every opportunity to do everything He commanded us to do by simply being together. (Anonymous)””.
    SECOND. i really am having DOUBTS in my mind if you really are a brother or a sister in faith because you said and i quote:” It’s NOT me who made the quoted statement, but that is based from a REAL personal experience of another brethren I knew. ” because inside the church we are not allowed to tolerate such matter as what you are saying. we are obliged to tell church authorities if we happen to know such acts are being commited by a brother or sister in faith.
    THIRD. you should have posted your post in the ASK BRO. ELI portion if you dont want to be rebutted since this is a community portal and ANYONE is welcome to post here and ANYONE can post about ANYTHING he or she wants to post. maybe you are just new to this kind of blog format so YOU REALLY DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO. its ok i understand its not your fault anyway.
    GOD BLESS YOU PINCH HOPPER.

  33. Let us just examine the way tradition and time change the concept or perception of a man.

    1. Before, during old testament time it is accepted that you marry your near relatives but in the present time it is immoral.

    2. Before, it is prohibited to eat fatty foods but in the present time it is allowable to the christian.

    3. And before so many bad works and now in present time are acceptable such as the way a woman dress and others.

    So, we should not judge according to the human standard because it is a hypocrites standard.

    And now for you BIBLE BEARER you will be judge as a bible bearer also not for the reason that you are not effiminate, drunkcards, idolaters, adulteres and others.

    You want sample then let us put yourself as a richman bible bearer claiming to Jesus christ like this;

    Mt:19:16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    Mt:19:17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    Mt:19:18: He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    Mt:19:19: Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Mt:19:20: The young man saith unto him, ALL THESE THINGS HAVE I KEPT FROM MY YOUTH UP: WHAT LACK I YET?
    Mt:19:21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    If you can do of what Matthew 19:21 stated, then you are RIGHTEOUS!.

    BUT, RIGHTEOUS is just only a standard or passing grade 75 in school because to be sanctified is through faith, mercy and justice.

    EYES

  34. Hi quiel!

    FIRST, Your comment, “it’s never been in my character to say something which i am very much unsure of and please allow me to analyze your posts here.” Have you forgotten what St. Paul said, “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.”? I doubt about what you said, as if you’re very sure of what happened with that homosexual brethren, as if you had known the WHOLE story. Oh well, I cannot do anything about pretentious claims.

    SECOND, For some reasons, it seems that you are trying hard to slap me down for no good reasons at all. Don’t you know what the word “seems” means, that even I am NOT sure about it? How come you keep on dragging me into a conclusion I haven’t formulated yet? Do you suppose what you’re going will bring any good fruit? If you have proven me wrong at all, is Christ glorified at all, or you’re putting me to shame in public because of my kind conscience and endurance to what that brethren had done against me? Will that abusive action of yours make you holier?

    THIRD, I’m simply asking a question to Bro. Eli so that I will know what to do to that homosexual brethren, that I may “revive” him. I really intended to post it here rather than in “Ask Bro. Eli”, for I need to assess what other brethren know about it, but my expectation was failed. I thought you’re all well-educated with our doctrines, too bad I expected too much. Anyway, it doesn’t mean that Bro. Eli can’t answer it here, but maybe a more private conversation with him, apart from the eyes of unlearned earthlings babbling what they don’t know at all. Hindi ko kayo masisisi kung ganyan kayo kababaw mag-isip, pero magpapadaya na lang ako para wala nang gulo.

    FOURTH, Now I am too having doubts in my mind if you’re a brother or sister in faith for instead of doing what St. Paul had suggested in I Corinthians 6:7, you’re instead doing these things for strife (Philippians 1:15). A brethren in faith esteems others as better than themselves, but I wonder why you’re doing the opposite.

    FIFTH, Your comment, “because inside the church we are not allowed to tolerate such matter as what you are saying. we are obliged to tell church authorities if we happen to know such acts are being commited by a brother or sister in faith”.

    SIXTH, Do you suppose I did nothing about that? Don’t you know that we had consulted more than 5 workers, and all they can say is, for me to leave him then ignoring his approaches? Also, I believe that I am not the only person who knows about that! I am a kind of person who have a very wide mind and heart, so I gave him a lot of opportunity to change his ways, but no change happened at all, so I reported him to the Church authorities.

    SEVENTH, Your comment, “THIRD. you should have posted your post in the ASK BRO. ELI portion if you dont want to be rebutted since this is a community portal and ANYONE is welcome to post here and ANYONE can post about ANYTHING he or she wants to post. maybe you are just new to this kind of blog format so YOU REALLY DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO. its ok i understand its not your fault anyway.”

    EIGHT, I didn’t say that I don’t want to be rebutted. Also, I am not a newbie to this kind of blog format. For your information, I am a moderator of a forum site owned by a brethren, so it’s improper for you to claim that I don’t really know what to do. Maybe I don’t really know what to do, that’s why I raised that “modified homosexual relationships” since I don’t know what to do about it! I don’t know what is your intention for saying “YOU REALLY DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO” if it is to boast that you are.

    PS.

    Probably this is my last reply in this page until an educated brethren will want to help me about it. I no longer need your comments. I just want to hear from the sensible preacher of our times, Bro. Eli.

    Vous tout gaspillent mon temps. Adieu.

  35. ey!PINCH, HAAAY! LUMANG TAKTIKA NA YAN! YUNG “DNT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH”KAYA NGA HNDI MO SINABI VERBATIM PARA D KA MAHULI KAAGAD BUT IT DOESNT WORK 4 ME MAN. THATS Y I SED IT B4HAND IN MY PREVIOUS MSG NA “U MIGHT NOT HAV SED IT NA HOMO ITONG SI JONATHAN AY BAKLA AND HE AND DAVID ARE HAVIN A MODIFIED HOMO RELATIONSHIP”BUT U CANNOT EVADE THE FACT FRM THE WAY U DRIVE UR ARGUMENTS UR RLI R INSINUATING/IMPLYING THAT JONATHAN IS GAY AND HE AND DAVID ARE HAVIN A MODIFIED HOMO RELATIONSHIP.U EVEN USED THE HEBREW DICTIONARY TO PROVE UR POINT THAT JONATHAN’S LOVE 4 DAVID WAS A FEMININE ONE.UR QUESTION WAS “IF THE HOMO BRETHREN WILL EXPRESS “ahabah” LOVE TO U,WILL THAT B LAWFUL OR NOT? MY ANSWER WILL BE LAWFUL! Y? BEC THAT “ahabah”(LOVE) JONATHAN FELT WAS NOT SENSUAL/HOMO/EROS LOVE AS U R TRYING TO INDIRECTLY SAY BEC THERE WAS A FEMININE GENDER REFERING TO THE WORD “ahabah”(love) MENTIOND IN THE HEBREW DICTIONARY.SINSE UR USING THE HEBREW DICTIONARY ALREDY CAN U DO ME A FAVOR TO MAKE THIS DISCUSSION MORE INTERESTING,CAN U CHECK OUT WHAT GENDER WAS USED IN “AGAPE”,”PHILIA” .NOW IF U CAN FIND A MASCULINE GENDER IN LOVE THEN MAYBE IT WILL MAKE UR ARGUMENTS MORE INTERESTING.4 ME I THINK THAT LUV IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN A FEMININE GENDER FORM JUST LIKE “WISDOM” W/C WAS IN A FEMININE GENDER,BUT I THINK I’LL WAIT KUNG ANO MAHANAP MO SA HEBREW DICTIONARY ABOUT DIFFERENT GENDERS USED REFERING TO LOVE.I SUGGEST MAKE IT COMPREHENSIVE….GUDLUCK…I’LL WAIT 4 IT..

  36. PINCH I WAS TRYING TO POST MY MSGS KANNINA PERO UNFORTUNATELY IT WAS NOT POSTED KAYA I AM USING ANOTHER NAME,INSTEAD OF JAMES I CHANGE IT TO JONKIE.CATCH U LATER NALANG CRU.NAHIHIRAPAN PA NAMAN AKO MAGTYPE TAPOS HNDI LANG PALA MA-IPOST

  37. To my beloved brethren,

    I’m haven’t even reached a year inside the congregation, and it’s not been once when I see this engage of arguments. To be truthful, I greatly frown at this kind of conversation, since it really do not prove anything. Not once have I seen this scenario. But please answer this to those who are fond of giving advises: how sure are you that your answers are correct? Have you really understand the situation, or the scenario presented?

    Many times have people gave me “useless” advises. They feel they can help but they cannot. Worse, they make the situation more unbearable. I know that we have the duty to help one another, but I think there is no need to act as a “know-it-all” if you haven’t even seen the bigger picture.

    Since I believe that many are “dependent” to what Bro Eli will say, then let’s just hear out what he’ll say rather than judge things which we hardly even know. Please; it’s really frustrating.

    If you can’t get an immediate answer, I suggest just wait until Judgment Day. But, all in all, especially to those who raise numerous questions, please bear with me as I ask this questions:

    What will you do after you attained the answers? What if the answers you hear are not what you expected? And, will everybody be able to understand or accept a single answer?

    Maybe we should be more careful other than careless in our comprehension, especially judging something as good or evil without even knowing everything. Because as far as I know, we all have things that make us unworthy of His grace. If we immediately judge things even if it’s still not the right time, then we shall also be measured similarly.

    Romans 14:13

    Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.

    1 Corinthians 4:4-5

    For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

  38. to my friend pinch hopper

    you said and i quote:”Have you forgotten what St. Paul said, “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.”? I doubt about what you said, as if you’re very sure of what happened with that homosexual brethren, as if you had known the WHOLE story. Oh well, I cannot do anything about pretentious claims.” well pinch hopper if you would be much CAREFUL about what i said I NEVER THOUGHT OF MYSELF THAT I KNOW EVERYTHING and BEING SURE DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN KNOWING EVERYTHING. i can be sure about how earnings per share is computed but i will never claim to have known all business transactions culminating as a result for my computations! you must realize that ALMOST ALL POSTERS HERE ARE CLOAKED UNDER THE GUISE OF AN ALIAS(PINCH HOPPER INCLUDED) AND ITS NOT VERY UNLIKELY THAT PERSONS OF QUESTIONABLE INTENTIONS TO POST MESSAGES INTENDED TO EMBARASS THE CHURCH THOUGH IM NOT CLAIMING PINCH HOPPER TO BE ONE OF THOSE.
    pinch hopper my friend, WHERE IN ANY OF MY POST IN THIS BLOG CAN YOU FIND THAT I CLAIM TO HAVE KNOWN EVERYTHING? WHERE DO THAT CAME FROM? what i said was I WAS SURE and the reason for me to be and the only basis of my surety are your posts here. NEVER DID I MISQUOTED ANY OF YOUR POSTS NOR MALICIOUSLY INSINUATED ANYTHING PERSONAL AGAINST YOU. never have i read in any and all of your posts THAT YOU DONT WANT TO BE REBUTTED.
    you said and i quote:” I am a moderator of a forum site owned by a brethren, so it’s improper for you to claim that I don’t really know what to do.” well if thats the case that you are a moderator as what you claim you are

  39. to my friend pinch hopper

    you said and i quote:”Have you forgotten what St. Paul said, “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.”? I doubt about what you said, as if you’re very sure of what happened with that homosexual brethren, as if you had known the WHOLE story. Oh well, I cannot do anything about pretentious claims.” well pinch hopper if you would be much CAREFUL about what i said I NEVER THOUGHT OF MYSELF THAT I KNOW EVERYTHING and BEING SURE DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN KNOWING EVERYTHING. i can be sure about how earnings per share is computed but i will never claim to have known all business transactions culminating as a result for my computations! you must realize that ALMOST ALL POSTERS HERE ARE CLOAKED UNDER THE GUISE OF AN ALIAS(PINCH HOPPER INCLUDED) AND ITS NOT VERY UNLIKELY THAT PERSONS OF QUESTIONABLE INTENTIONS TO POST MESSAGES INTENDED TO EMBARASS THE CHURCH THOUGH IM NOT CLAIMING PINCH HOPPER TO BE ONE OF THOSE.
    pinch hopper my friend, WHERE IN ANY OF MY POST IN THIS BLOG CAN YOU FIND THAT I CLAIM TO HAVE KNOWN EVERYTHING? WHERE DO THAT CAME FROM? what i said was I WAS SURE and the reason for me to be and the only basis of my surety are your posts here. NEVER DID I MISQUOTED ANY OF YOUR POSTS NOR MALICIOUSLY INSINUATED ANYTHING PERSONAL AGAINST YOU. never have i read in any and all of your posts THAT YOU DONT WANT TO BE REBUTTED.
    you said and i quote:” I am a moderator of a forum site owned by a brethren, so it’s improper for you to claim that I don’t really know what to do.” well if thats the case that you are a moderator as what you claim you are YOU MUST BE FULLY AWARE THAT IT IS POSSIBLE THAT YOUR POST CAN BE COMMENTED UPON BECAUSE YOU ARE A MODERATOR IN A FORUM SITE RIGHT?
    LASTLY. you said and i quote:”Probably this is my last reply in this page until an educated brethren will want to help me about it.” CAN I ASK YOU WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? DO YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT IT IS YOU ALONE THAT IS EDUCATED HERE AND ANYBODY THAT DOESNT FIT INTO YOUR CONCEPT OF “EDUCATION” IS NOT EDUCATED OR CIVIL ENOUGH? i think im not the one who is having pretentious claims here like you said and i quote:”Oh well, I cannot do anything about pretentious claims.” i think YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS PRETENTIOUS! HOW DARE YOU!

  40. please allow me to speak in tagalog:
    PARA SA LAHAT NG AYAW MAPUNA NG IBA YUNG MGA POST NYA WAG NA LANG KAYONG MAGPOST DITO PARA DI KAYO MAPAGKAMALIANG MAY MASAMA KAYONG HANGAD LALO NA KUNG ALIAS PA ANG GAMIT NYO. KUNG GUSTO NYONG WALANG MAKABASANG IBANG TAO SA MESSAGE NYO DUN NA LANG KAYO MAGPOST SA ASK BRO.ELI SECTION NG BLOG NA ITO. MARAMI PONG SALAMAT SA DIOS AT SA INYO.

  41. hi james! you’ve ben victimized as well by the moderator? I also had to change my log in name because the moderator never wana publish my rebuttals against some concocted ideas of a certain homo named “pinching waist hip-hopper”.

    To send your reply to “d pinch moderator, click on her/his name and you can post on his/her webpage”.

    “pinching waist hip-hopper” is a he-she, and very much undecided with his/her sexuality.

  42. bro Eli’s blog is sufficient to address any question about the subject. those within the Household should have no reason to contradict each other.

  43. Comments above may confuse the unlearned.

    I want to give my thoughts and what I learned regarding this matter.

    The term homosexual, defined outside the bible would mean a lot of things.

    It can hurt people. It can cause death. It can cause suffering, not only to the subject (the homosexual) but also to the people around him/her.

    For me, homosexuality begins when a male starts to take notice of a quality/s of another male (same sex). After this, he becomes curious to this new found feeling or emotion, because something about that man stimulated his emotion.

    Who are we to judge if this is immoral or moral? Everyone feels the above examples whether his stimulation was caused by a male or a female. Everyone desires someone.

    But desire can mean many things. Love can mean so much too.

    Actually, it also depends on the upbringing of the person how he uses the new found stimulus or sensation, whether to perversion or just inspiration.

    Perversion starts after taking notice of your opposite sex and then desiring him sexually.

    Therefore what makes homosexuality immoral or unclean?

    Let us not forget the basic truth regarding homosexuality.

    Rome 1:

    21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    –To all the homosexuals, let us keep ourselves clean not only to the people seeing us more importantly to our God who made us.

  44. Hi everyone who were rebutting me!

    Thank you all for your abusive comments and accusations against me. I don’t have anything more to say but rather to step down to your level, I will just close my eyes, recalling how Jesus was spoken evil of, even from his fellow Jews.

    Luke 20:20, “And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.”

    John 2:19-21, “Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.

    Matthew 26:59-61, “Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.”

    I will speak nothing more (to defend myself). Thank you very much for your unfriendly welcome and I hope that you’re all doing it by faith in God. I now rest my case. Crucify me if you wish, but I will not fight back.

    Pouvoir Dieu m’épargne des frères faux.

  45. WHHHHAAAATTTT!!!!!!????? DNT BE SUCH A SISSY PINCH! NOBODY’S GONNA CRUCFY U! GINAWA MO PA KAMING MGA JUDIO,AND HU DO U THINK U R,CHRIST? AND PLS 4 UR OWN GUD, PLS LEAVE THE OUR LORD OUT OF THIS,OK? MAGKAROON KA NAMAN NG DELEKADESA.SUCH UNSCRUPULOUS IDEA LIKE THE “MODIFIED HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIP” IS PROHIBITED!AND PLS DNT USE 2SAM 1:26 TO SOMEWHAT JUSTIFY IT.NO CHRISTIAN PRACTICES “MODIFIED HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONCHIP”(>>>ROMANCE>>>COMMITMENT…PLUS GOD).WHEN U SAY UR COMMITED TO SOME1 ROMANTICLY IT MEANS THAT U HAV TO B ROMANTIC WID HIM IN WORDS AND IN DEEDS BEC.BEING COMMITED MEANS UR OBLIGATED TO DO SO.AND WHAT DO PIPOL DO WHEN THEY ARE ROMANTICLY(EROS) INVOVE? STARE AT EACH OTHER? COM’N DNT BE SILLY! IT STARTS LIKES A SPARK THEN B4 U KNOW UR BEING CONSUMED BY THE FIRE ALREDY! LAYO-AN NINYO ANG BAWAT ANYO NG MASAMA! DNT B FOOLED BY THE MYTERY OF INIQUITY! 4 WE R NOT BLIND NOT TO SEE WATS FRM AFAR.ISNT IT ENOUGH WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE HU STARTED WID THIS KIND OF MODIFIED HOMO RELATIONSHP WHO ENDED UP BEING EXCOMMUNICATED 4 THEY EXCHANGE THE GRACE OF GOD FOR LASCIVIOUSNESS,THESE ARE SENSUAL,SEPARATING THEMSELVES FRM THE TRUTH,HAVING NO SPIRIT.HEAR ME BRO.!AM SPEAKING TO U AS A WISE BELIVER! DNT TAKE THIS AS AN ANY FORM OF ABUSIVE COMMENT AS WER SAYING IN UR POST BUT TAKE THIS AS A SHARP CRITISIZM, AS A BROTHERLY ADVICE.Y WILL WE CRUCIFY U? U THINK OF US AS JEWS OR UR FELLOW BROTHERS? U ARE A BROTHER IN FAITH.WE LUVE U THATS Y WE REBUKED WHAT U SED WHAT WE THOT WAS WRONG.STAY STRONG BRO!

  46. EY! WER DID MY POST GO? IT WAS SUPPOSE TO END PINCHE’S PROBLEM!PAMBIHIRA,,HEHEHHEHE…THIS GUY NIDS TO BE FIXED! HE’S THINKS OF US AS JEWS THAT WE HAV TO CRUCIFY HIM IF WE WISH SO.HU DOES HE THINK HE IS ,CHRIST? EY MAN!
    LEAVE THE LORD OUT OF THIS.HAV SOME SENSE OF DELIKADESA.

    • Are you having fun, demon?

      The reason he is so happy is because he has good, decent people like you desperately trying to help the poor homosexual with his problem.

      The homosexual lives in a physical world. He lives as if he has no spirit and no soul. He does not recognize my God. God doesn’t fit in with his world.

      So this is a non-issue. The homosexual issue is a non-issue. We, as Christians and defenders of the faith should move our prayers to the more worthy.

      There are children born everyday who could starve to death before the age of 3 in the United States.

      There are babies who are partially pulled from their mother’s vagina and stabbed by a certified doctor in the nape of the neck, just enough to sever the spine and cause Partial-Birth Abortions.

      Who cares who a bunch of aberrant men care to screw? God told us all to come forth and tell them – not convince them!

      This should be a non-issue for all Christians.

      Time is short and we still have a lot of God’s work to do, brothers and sisters!

      Praise His Holy Name!

      Leave this type of filth and Go Forth in Power and Love!

  47. I read pinch_hopper’s first post.

    He gave an example of how he understand the meaning of homosexuallity therefore defined it through a diagram, model or analogy: where a relationship of two same gender (man to man) ends to sexual intimacy, csexual intimacy or sex.

    In connection to the previous analogy, he then tried to state an example of how a homosexual relationship can end with just committment between two man and with God. He even stated similar analogy of an anonymous writer.

    Now he asked bro Eli whether the latter, as he tagged it as modified homosexual relationship, without necessarily accepting the definition he gave through an analogy.

    And since his last analogy insinuates a belief, or otherwise, maybe some people here thought that it was his belief.

    But when pinch_hopper explained further his stand, it still insinuates that he was commenting based on his own experience and belief. He even gave an example of David and Jonathan relationship.

    Actually, to answer your assumption on a man’s commitment with a man even if he has a wife insinuates a role of being a “querida.”

    Is my understanding of your comment correct pinch_hopper?

    Nevertheless, a true christian brother would not end his statement in such a way that gives a double meaning.

    It is but unfair to us what you just did. You insinuated so much things from your sarcastic point of view. And my observation is not based on assumption but rather how I understood your sarcastic tone of ending your case.

    You were really fighting back sarcastically.
    By the way, sarcasm is “a cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.”

    That is how we can distinguish a brother or not, by way he reasons out.

    Just a brotherly advise, please, do not be defensive more so when you are hiding under a fictitious username.

  48. You were really fighting back sarcastically.
    By the way, sarcasm is “a cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.”

    That is how we can distinguish a brother or not, by way he reasons out.

    Just a brotherly advise, please, do not be defensive more so when you are hiding under a fictitious username.

    Ilapit sa manggagawa kung merong kayong problema o doktrinang hindi naiintindahan upang maitama kayo.

    If there are any unclear matter you want to raise about our doctrines, we are always been reminded that we should ask these things to our assigned worker.

    We always say that we really mean no harm but never stopped to speak.

    Therefore, I ask for your patience, understanding and forgiveness should I have been too talkative. Peace!

  49. Wow !
    I just stumbled upon this post and was the first to comment on it. I had no idea that it would turn out to be such a shouting match (so it seems).
    The only thing we can do here is come before God and His Word, and let His Spirit alone speak to us. If you have been born of His Spirit, let Him guide you into all Truth. Get alone and listen.
    Jesus Christ came to into this world as “The lamb of God” and He died for all of our sins. “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. If we receive Christ as the forgiveness of our sins, confess and forsake them, He will abundantly pardon.
    May God’s Grace be upon you all,
    Richard

    • Praise God! Very well said. Except………….

      Who are you preaching to? The Godly certainly do not need to be ‘calmed’ by you and the unrighteous can’t hear you anyway!

      Let us also remember that our God is a fierce God!

      Praise His Name

      • JOHN 3:16 says it best! God’s love is for everyone. Anyone that judges another man is in danger of the judgment themself. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone? Where is the love of God in each of us? Peace unto us all and love one another!

  50. I have read the “logical defense” of certain individuals, and I am very disappointed by the posts of some individuals who claim themselves to be true brethrens.

    Because first and foremost, your words are things which a true brethren will never utter. Maybe you should try to pretend somewhere else, because as far as I am concerned, your thinking seems to be too narrow for a brethren.

    It’s true. The posts of many individuals here (I won’t be mentioning names) are nothing more but “attacks of recklessness.” They have failed to establish their stand and do not even know what they are mumbling.

    Matthew 12:34, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”

    I wont be mentioning names. May your consciences be the one to speak for you. If this is the only display of “valor” which you can do; do it somewhere else.

    Luke 6:45, “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.”

    That’s all. I hope such “discussions” will no longer be necessary. Gosh, how unsightly…

  51. I have read the “logical defense” of certain individuals, and I am very disappointed by the posts of some individuals who post themselves as true brethrens.

    Because first and foremost, their words are things which a true brethren will never utter. Maybe you should try to pretend somewhere else, because as far as I am concerned, your thinking seems to be too narrow for a brethren.

    It’s true. The posts of many individuals here (I won’t be mentioning names) are nothing more but “attacks of recklessness.” They have failed to establish their stand and do not even know what they are mumbling.

    Matthew 12:34, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”

    I wont be mentioning names. May your consciences be the one to speak for you. If this is the only display of “valor” which you can do; do it somewhere else.

    Luke 6:45, “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.”

    That’s all. I hope such “discussions” will no longer be necessary. Gosh, how unsightly…

    And for the record, PH is a “he”. I personally know him, and I believe some individuals judged him outright without thinking or knowing him first. And for that resons, even I doubt that you are true brethren in faith.

    May there be mercy upon your souls…

    Luke 11:54, “Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.”

  52. lyonesse said and i quote:”And for the record, PH is a “he”. I personally know him, and I believe some individuals judged him outright without thinking or knowing him first. And for that resons, even I doubt that you are true brethren in faith.” I THINK THIS LYONESSE AND PINCH HOPPER ARE REALLY THE SAME PERSON GUISING HIMSELF AS TWO DISTINCT PERSONS UNDER TWO DISTINCT ALIASES. ITS VERY EASY TO USE TWO OR MORE ALIASES UNDER DIFFERENT E-MAIL ADDRESSES AND POST MESSAGES HERE IN THIS PAGE. ITS VERY POSIBLE.

  53. Sorry to disappoint but “no”. It is not the first time that people thought that we are the same individual or person, but we’re not. You can ask a lot of individuals from this site if you wish to conduct an investigation of sorts.

    http://www.yirmeyah.net

    But, that’s your right. Nobody’s taking that from you. But as far as I’m concerned, we will be judged according to our individual actions. So, to the people concerned who were “hit”, sorry but I was merely defending someone (perhaps for the umpteenth time). Not that he cannot defend himself, but just because the exchange of arguments were simply unsightly.

    That’s all.

  54. Come on brothers! Let’s all meet face to face! Pinch is a nurse at ADD plyclinic in Apalit. Just meet him ther and accompany him to the MIC since regular workers have already given him some advice. Why do I use masculine pronouns with pinch? His birth certificate says “male” and his physical anatomy supports such claim. As to his “gender orientation” or “sexual identity”, the MIC can help him out 🙂

    PS
    im 100% female, in and out hahaha

  55. Pinch,

    When I say “im 100% female, in and out”, don’t try and

    presuppose any other meaning. What I really mean is that I’m

    female in every essence of the word “female”. How about you

    Pinch hopper?

    Hi P.A. mis yah!

  56. hey cel d2 🙂 thats a very nice idea of yours because you said and i quote:”Let’s all meet face to face! Pinch is a nurse at ADD plyclinic in Apalit. Just meet him ther and accompany him to the MIC since regular workers have already given him some advice. Why do I use masculine pronouns with pinch? His birth certificate says “male” and his physical anatomy supports such claim. As to his “gender orientation” or “sexual identity”, the MIC can help him out:”. I THINK YOUR IDEA IS THE BEST!

  57. Yes, there are homosexuals here on earth who do not perform such sexual acts with their partner,( though we may not deny their feelings of affection for the same sex), and those are God-fearing, real Christians, who are affiliated with the true religion (I Timothy 3:15).

  58. Pingback: A Gay Christian Bachelor « elman, the man

  59. Hi Everyone!

    Twice I posted my counter-rebuttal, but a sort of personal bias was raised against me (by unknown persons). Therefore, I’ll rather help myself, knowing that my innocence became a pitfall which I never intended to generate an idea that David and Jonathan had any homosexual relationships. JAMES a.k.a. WOLVERINE! had been spreading stumblingblock at the e-Debate and yet I am defenseless in this point. It’s my time to act by myself, I think, since no one can really help me at all…

  60. Note: Translated to English from Source.

    Question: As per written in 1 Cor 6:9, what kind of homosexuals are those who will not be saved, are those who simply feel like the opposite gender, or those who perform homosexual acts like cross-dressing, relationships with the same sex like Puto (Daniel Veridiano), or those males who use lipsticks and other female accessories?

    Answer: What I knew, whatever are those, they are washed, purified, and justified. Fornication of a male to another male is prohibited. But,we should check out first how the word “effeminate” wasused in different translations,

    G3120
    μαλακός
    malakos
    mal-ak-os’
    Of uncertain affinity; soft, that is, fine (clothing); figuratively a catamite: – effeminate, soft.

    American Standard Version: effeminate
    Bishops: weaklinges
    Contemporary English Version: pervert
    Darby: who make women of themselves
    Geneva: wantons
    Good News Bible: adulterers
    International Standard Version: homosexuals
    King James Version: effeminate
    Tagalog Ang Biblia: nangbababae
    Ang Dating Biblia: nagsasababae

    Noticed the variations of the words used? Simply the Tagalog translations, nangbababae (womanizing) is far alot different with nagsasababae (make women of themselves). By this observation, we must not be limited to the common knowledge about homosexuality, that the ones you are seeing are the ones whom St. Paul is referring to. We need to search deeper in the Scriptures to understand what would St. Paul is referring to

    Isaiah 19:16,”In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which he shaketh over it.”

    Jeremiah 48:41, “Kerioth is taken, and the strong holds are surprised, and the mighty men’s hearts in Moab at that day shall be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.”

    Jeremiah 49:22, “Behold, he shall come up and fly as the eagle, and spread his wings over Bozrah: and at that day shall the heart of the mighty men of Edom be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.”

    Jeremiah 50:37, “A sword is upon their horses, and upon their chariots, and upon all the mingled people that are in the midst of her; and they shall become as women: a sword is upon her treasures; and they shall be robbed.”

    Jeremiah 51:30, “The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwellingplaces; her bars are broken.”

    Isn’t it that “to become as women” suggests being “fearful”? A proof is in Revelations 21:8, “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

    Don’t you know that even the straight females must not be effeminate? So, St. Paul is NOT specifically referring to homosexuals alone, but EVERYONE (including the”straights”) who are found to be effeminate should be washed, purified, and to be justified for them to be saved. A homosexual, who desires to be holy in the sight of God, should not be afraid to face the consequences of being a Christian, for it is written in Luke 9:62, “And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” It is IMPROPER to hastily classify those persons as “wicked and evil”. Should we question God for allowing their existence? That’s why we should NOT judge them until the Judgement Day comes.

    Question: What kind of desire is prohibited, to desire someone of the same sex to be boyfriend/girlfriend or only up to the extent to desire his/her body like plaaning for a sexual relationship?

    Answer: Actually, a man desiring to have another male as boyfriend is the start of sinning. Small as it seems (to dream is free of charge), but when satan had successfully used those feelings to create greater sinning, eventually leads to fornication. If a man looking at another woman with lust is already committing fornication, HOW MUCH MORE when a man is having lust with another man (since they may reason out that the Bible had no mention about it being a sin). Like a married man just making sweet text messages with another girl is prohibited for us, how much more prohibited in engaging in such relationships!

    ============================================

    This is my reply to a message posted by another (based from their personal experiences)

    How about the principle of magnets: “Opposite poles attract; like poles repel”? It had been used by someone I knew who is against homosexuality but I find it “inappropriate” to apply magnetism to sexual preference. Besides it is men who placed “N” and “S” to magnets, thus defining the reaction.

    The question is, shall we base sexuality in terms of biological aspects, or in terms of the gender of our inner man? “A woman trapped in man’s body”, they say. Does really the balance between “estrogen” and “testosterone” define who shall we be attracted to? Can testosterone be a wonder drug for faggots, and estrogen for lesbians?

    Is it really in God’s hands whether a man be a homosexual or not, or it is in the personal choice?

    A more important question: is homosexuality a predisposing (non-modifiable) or precipitating (modifiable) condition? I’ve made an assumption that though a homosexual can pretend to be not, but thieir hearts can’t; there’s always a feeling for the same gender though they mingle like heterosexuals, some even try to prove they’re not by intentionally smoking or drinking lots of alcohol with other hetero friends. Though I made my own research regarding this condition based from the persons I knew, it’s still a mystery for me, for I can’t make my explanation of something I don’t have, or else, I’ll be like others babbling biased arguments against them. It’s unethical for a heterosexual to define homosexual life. I have to gather more data from those “true” homosexuals so that I will not fail in judgment.

    ============================================
    THE CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE ON “MODIFIED HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS”
    ============================================

    This is another reply to a message posted by another (based from their personal experiences)

    My reply: How about putting homosexuality in a deeper perspective? Let Mr. XXX as our male homosexual and Ms. YYY as our female homosexual. Mr. XXX dreams to be a lifetime partner of a male brethren, and when rebuked, he reasons out, “I’m not feeling lust for him; curse me if I do! I never have sexual intents over him, but I can’t help but to follow what He plans for us and if it is not His will, He will not allow it to happen.” Then Ms. YYY, after being caught to be so close with a female brethren, reasons out, “I feel there’s nothing wrong with that! As long as we can continually serve Him, were not doing anytrhing wrong. In fact, we’re able to do better things simply by being together.”

    Can you see the problem? This is something new that emerged only nowadays. I was even so surprized about this “modified homosexual acts”, though looks like there’s nothing wrong with that, but the Holy Spirit dictates me that it’s never been right. It is more than a simple attraction to the same gender, but not necessarily having sexual intents to that person. However, it can be as grave as assuming himself/herself to be that person’s husband/wife, pointing out that Adam and Eve don’t experience matrimony, but was considered as coouples upon “knowing” each other. The problem is that the Bible is condemning “mapakiapid sa kapuwa lalake”, but some reasons out that it only pertains to lust. It’s not different from asking “What’s wrong with smoking cigarettes? Does the Bible said thou shall not smoke cigarettes?” The Bible doesn’t explain detail-by-detail the issues about homosexuality but take note that Satan has depths, in which if we’re caught unaware, we could be like some of the Thyatirans. Like how St. Paul said in II Corinthians 2:11, “so that we should not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his devices.” I hope our preachers Bro.Eli and Bro. Daniel will be able to give answers to this one. But, we should not simply treat homosexuality merely as having attraction and/or lust to the same gender.

    Comment: “hmm.. wow.. i never thought that any brother or sister would feel/ think like that.. bro.PH… i think you are right in saying that there really is something wrong with this kind of picture.. brethren having homosexual relationships?!!!? whoa!”

    My reply: It’s uncommon, but that is a fact. I am NOT simply drawing a story in my mind regarding this matter.

    It’s hard to raise your reputation if you’re known to be a homosexual. We are aware that men, especially with non-believers, have an intense reluctancy with gay men. Unlike them, I show no partiality with persons and I treat homosexuals as if they’re not, that’s why I became aware about it, confiding with me comfortably regarding that matter. So, don’t ask me to describe that case detail-by-detail, for I am aware of Proverbs 11:13, “A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.” So, you just have to wait ’till Judgment Day and He will be the one to show you whom I am referring to.

    But don’t get me wrong. NOT ALL secrets should remain hidden, especially when it has something to do with salvation. You may ask, why then did Bro. Eli revealed Ka E. Manalo’s voice in public, knowing that it is an INC secret, made exclusively for INC ministers? Is he wrong for showing secret facts? He didn’t err, for Ka Manalo’s voice is significant to many souls being deceived by Manalo and his cohorts. Let’s read Luke 1:79, “To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.” But regarding the case I had known, this is the only thing I can say: I Corinthians 10:23, “All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.”

    ============================================

    Question:

    According to the account of creation, God created man and woman, right? But in this world, there are homosexuals. Will they also be saved?

    Bro. Eli:

    It is right that God created man and woman. It is true up to this time. Nothing was added. It is still man and woman. A homosexual; a gay or a faggot, is still classified as man. The same is true for lesbians. They are still classified as woman. In fact, when you look at at their physical structure, they are really man and woman. The only difference is their attitude and sexual preferences. A so-called homosexual is attracted to a male; while a so-called lesbian is attracted to a female — basically wanting the same sex! That is reality.

    But the question is their chance of salvation. Other religions are condemning these kinds of people already. Are they right in doing so? There is an answer written in I Cor. 6:9-11 that goes like this,

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, KJV
    9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    There were in the first century Christians, these kinds of people. They have an equal chance to salvation. They just have to be baptized and be washed of their sins in the true church.

    Copied from source: The Old Path Magazine. Vol. 01 no. 3 pp. 49-55

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    Comment: “I won’t agree if there’d exist such situation wherein a Happy Christian would dream to be a lifetime partner of a brother/sister in Christ. Co’z this is beyond the nature.”

    My reply: That homosexual I had described is NOT a member of “Happy Christian” but rather a “closet gay”. Again, it’s hard to raise your reputation for being branded as homosexual, that you have to accept the fact that straight men will not be spending long time with you knowing that you’re a “Happy Christian”. Those who were in Happy Christian, since they are obedient in the Gospel, certainly knows that thinking to have another male to be his lifetime partner is against the Gospel. Don’t you know that the quoted statements are almost exactly what that homosexual had said, that I made some slight “twists” (not deception) so that it will NOT be directly insulting that person if ever he discovered this forum site? I put it into practice to always have a back-up evidence whenever I speak. I did understand that It’s really unbelievable, but then, we should expect the unexpected as satan’s devices are getting “advanced”.

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    Discourse on Sodomy Always Having Been Wrong
    Source Page: http://religioustruths.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=immoralty&action=display&thread=1166095510

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    Note: for Queen_Lyonesse’ articles, PLEASE READ HER DISCLAIMER:
    >>
    The articles that I will be posting regarding this matter are not for the weak-minded or those who are easily stumbled. I had to do some research to make a number articles regarding this topic. With His help, I will be discussing the Nursing, psychosocial, Biblical/moral, and societal aspects of the matter and the various questions being raised. Let it be known that I have no stand in this issue, and is simply stating what I have known. Let those people who will use the information stated wherein as “evidence” against me do so if they wish, but my conscience is clear that the information stated here are either from other sources or are mere opinions/analysis and have little to no connection to the doctrines of the organization MCGI. I am not a preacher of anything in anyway, and I am not trying to sow false beliefs upon the masses or cause divisions inside the congregation. If I have made a wrong analysis, then kindly correct me, for I am a human prone to mistakes.

    Author’s (QL’s) Notes: I feel I will regret this, for I already am regretting posting to the other thread…
    >>

    Source: http://www.yirmeyah.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=303&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=homosexuals+church&start=45
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    Homosexuality

    Homosexuality, sexual orientation toward people of the same sex. Homosexuality contrasts with heterosexuality, sexual orientation toward people of the opposite sex. People with a sexual orientation toward members of both sexes are called bisexuals (see Bisexuality). Female homosexuals are frequently called lesbians. In recent years, the term gay has been applied to both homosexual men and women.

    Homosexuality appears in virtually all social contexts—within different community settings, socioeconomic levels, and ethnic and religious groups. The number of homosexuals in the population is difficult to determine, and reliable data do not exist. However, current estimates suggest that the term homosexual may apply to 2 to 4 percent of men. Estimates for lesbians are lower. Not all people who engage in homosexual activity necessarily identify themselves as homosexual.

    Attitudes toward homosexual behavior have varied with time and place. In ancient Greece, homosexual relations were accepted and, in some cases, expected activity in certain segments of society. Later attitudes toward homosexuality in the Western world were determined largely by prevailing Judeo-Christian moral codes, which treat homosexuality as immoral or sinful. But like many other sins, homosexual relations were seen as expressions of the weakness inherent in all human beings, and not as a mental disorder or as the behavior of a specific type of person. This latter view, which regarded homosexuality as a pathology, developed in the late 19th century. By the beginning of the 20th century, psychoanalysts viewed homosexuals as the victims of faulty development. Austrian physician Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis, considered homosexuality a deviant condition. More recently, scientists have searched for a biological explanation of sexual orientation. A study published in 1993 sought to identify a genetic marker for sexual orientation. The research, which did not include a cross section of the population, was inconclusive.

    During the first half of the 20th century, attitudes toward homosexuality were overwhelmingly negative. Homosexual activities were hidden and spoken of only in whispers, and homosexual behavior, even among consenting adults, was a criminal offense in most of the United States. Homosexuals were subject to stereotypes and prejudice. Gay men were viewed as effeminate, lesbians were portrayed as mannish, and both were seen as being obsessed with sex, with little self-control or morality. Homosexuals frequently were thought to be potential child molesters. In the 1930s and during World War II (1939-1945), homosexuals were targets of persecution in Nazi Germany.

    Prejudices against homosexuals in Western societies have only recently begun to change. The first major shift followed the publication of two famous reports, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (1948) and Sexual Behavior in the Human Female (1952), by American biologist Alfred Charles Kinsey. Although these works contained inflated estimates of the homosexual population and the incidence of behavior, they provided a more realistic picture of homosexuality and helped demystify it. Unlike earlier studies which focused on homosexuals who had sought medical or psychological help, the Kinsey reports described homosexuals outside of clinical settings. Kinsey found homosexuals in all walks of life, growing up in all kinds of families, practicing many different religions. As a result of the ensuing scientific discussion, the American Psychiatric Association in 1973 eliminated homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses and, in 1980, dropped it from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).

    Microsoft Encarta Premium 2007, cited by Queen_Lyonesse

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    Transvestism

    Transvestism, the practice of wearing the clothing of the opposite sex for emotional or sexual expression. Transvestism does not include all instances of wearing such clothing, however. Cross-dressing differs from transvestism in that it is conducted for different reasons; a person cross-dresses to make a comment on society or to entertain. Cross-dressing is not usually referred to as transvestism.

    Transvestites tend to perceive themselves either as women with masculine predispositions, or as men with comparable feminine predispositions. For some, transvestism is limited to using the clothing of the other gender to elicit sexual excitement. However, for more transvestites, sexual behavior is involved only slightly or not at all; instead, the transvestite gains emotional satisfaction from dressing in the clothing of the opposite sex. Transvestites often describe their behavior as expressing those aspects of the identity and roles of the other gender that they feel are important aspects of their self-definition.

    Transvestism is not a reliable indication of sexual orientation; it does not necessarily involve abandoning one’s original gender identity as a woman or man. Transvestism occurs among both sexes, but is more common among men than among women and more common among heterosexuals than among homosexuals. In some cultures transvestism is an accepted behavior, with members of the population adopting the identity of the opposite sex. One example is the berdaches, people in some Native American groups who assume the role of the opposite sex, including dress. In other cultures and historical periods, transvestism was considered deviant behavior.

    Current scientific opinions about transvestism are divided. Some see transvestism as a symptom of failed gender socialization; others view it as a normal expression of the desire to blur the social distinctions between women and men. Similarly, some psychiatrists view such behavior as symptomatic of maladjustment and requiring treatment, while others believe that treatment is appropriate only if the person experiences conflict or disturbances in his or her social or professional life.

    Cross-dressing has a long history, going back at least to ancient Greece. It was often a ritual practice during festivals or religious ceremonies. Cross-dressing is still common during carnivals such as Mardi Gras. In this context cross-dressing is a parody of social conventions and social mores, particularly as they relate to gender roles. Cross-dressing is also a means for providing comic entertainment and is a socially acceptable medium for transposing gender roles. A rich tradition in Western literature exploits the incongruities and confusions that can result from transvestism. These works range from William Shakespeare’s As You Like It to such films as Some Like It Hot (1959), Victor/Victoria (1982), and Mrs. Doubtfire (1993).

    Microsoft Encarta Premium 2007, cited by Queen_Lyonesse.

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    Effeminate

    1) offensive term: an offensive term used to describe a man whose behavior, appearance, or speech is considered to be similar to that traditionally associated with women or girls

    2) overrefined and lacking strength: weak through overrefinement or an absence of vigorous qualities (disapproving)

    Encarta Dictionaries, cited by Queen_Lyonesse

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    Are You a “True” Man or a “True” Woman?
    by: Queen_Lyonesse
    ============================================

    Sexual identity has been one of greatest concern of many people about others. Sometimes, when two men are said to have a “romantic relationship”, they can sometimes be the target of ridicule and disrespect. Actually, even if a person has a heterosexual relationship, I do not think they will be automatically respected and that their relationship is pleasing to the Lord.

    “Sexuality is more than genital physical activity. Sexuality encompasses our whole being. It includes our sense of femaleness and maleness. Sexuality includes biological, sociological, psychological, spiritual, and cultural dimensions of each person’s being. In addition, sexuality is influenced by values, attitudes, behaviors, relationships with others, and the need to establish emotional closeness with others (MacLaren, 1995).”

    Perry, P. et. al. (2005) Fundamentals of Nursing. Sixth Edition. Elsevier PTE Ltd.: Philippines

    Sexual Development Across the Lifespan

    Infancy and Early Childhood – children are treated differently according to their gender. According to Freud’s psychodynamic theory, the first 3 years of life is important in the development of gender identity. This starts when the child becomes aware of the differences in the sexes, and perceives that he or she is a male or female. This allows the child to interpret behaviors appropriate for a male or female.

    School-Age Years – children expand their horizons from family and parents. Other people serve as role models on how men and women act and relate with each other. They need accurate information about normal emotional and physical changes during this period and what to expect as they move on into puberty. An uninformed child may be frightened by menstruation or nocturnal emission and view them as evidence of a dreadful disease.

    Puberty/Adolescence – the emotional changes are dramatic, as well as physical ones. Constant anxieties are “Am I normal?” and “Will I be accepted?” Same-sex peers remain influential in defining appropriate behavior, but the task of establishing a romantic relationship begins.
    Adolescence is often a developmental phase during which an individual explores his or her primary sexual orientation. Many adolescents will have at least one homosexual experience with an individual or in a group. Adolescents may fear that this experience defines their total sexuality as homosexual. This is not true. Many individuals continue with a strictly heterosexual orientation after such experiences. However, some teenagers may recognize their preferences as distinctly homosexual. This could be frightening and confusing for an adolescent.

    Young Adulthood – physical maturation is established, although emotional maturation in relationships is still being defined. Sexual activity is often defines as a basic need, but sexual desire may be channeled healthily into other forms of intimacy throughout the lifetime.
    Knowledge on different ways of sexual expression that penile-vaginal intercourse may be explored by the individual, in hope to provide more sexual satisfaction for themselves and their sexual partners.

    Middle Adulthood – social and emotional changes relate to children leaving the home is experienced. In this state, a couple may renew their intimacy, or they may no longer care for each other. Changes physically may affect a person’s self-esteem and sexual attractiveness.

    Older Adulthood – studies suggest that older adults retain an interest in sexual function and are sexually active. Some say that sexual interest and behavior decline among older adults.

    Sexual Orientation

    “Sexual orientation describes the predominant gender preference of a person’s sexual attraction over time. For about 10% of the population, the sexual preference is a member of the same sex. For another, 20% the sexual preference is a member of either sex (Rossm Channon, Little, and Rosser, 2000). Homosexuality among men and lesbianism among women is defined as the preference of a member of the same sex as a sexual partner. Bisexuality refers to an equal or almost equal preference for either sex.

    “Many stereotypical myths remain about homosexuals and lesbians. However, the nurse who is nonjudgemental and equipped with an appropriate knowledge can help to dispel these myths and provide nursing care that includes attention to the person’s sexual orientation.”

    Perry, P. et. al. (2005) Fundamentals of Nursing. Sixth Edition. Elsevier PTE Ltd.: Philippines

    Perhaps I just have too observant eyes, but as far as I have seen, nobody can really say that they are “true” men and women. Is “maleness” shown by how many females you can hook or having a wife? Is being a woman measured by the ability to conceive, to attract men into falling “head over heels” over you, or having a husband? Then again, how can you say that a man is “truly” a man, and how can you say that a woman is “really” a woman? By means of sexual orientation? Or is it merely dictated by what genitalia you have? I don’t think so…

    We are aware that there are clear-cut gender differences in the Scriptures. We know, for certain, that God created Adam (a man) and Eve (a woman). During early periods of the human civilization, reproduction has been one of the top priorities of man. But, is there anything in the Bible wherein a person has to prove his “manhood” or “womanhood” before the Lord? That, a man can only be “in love” with a woman, and a woman can only be “in love” with a man?

    To have many wives was not yet “immoral” back then (but a woman cannot have many husbands!). If a man dies without having children, the man’s brother is obliged to have sexual intercourse with the man’s wife to “give him seed” (I wonder if we practice this nowadays). Whores and harlots where proliferate, and it was acceptable to have “concubines” (women who lives with you and has sexual relations with you, but are not considered as your “wives”). Someone asked me, a feminist, if the Scriptures is against women (as was stated in the controversial novel “The Da Vinci Code”). I answered, “Of course not! But women have their place in society, and men have theirs. In some sense, it’s for order and also based from the design of human anatomy of men and women.” She showed me this passage, but I can’t seem to recall right now how I explained this to her.

    Ecclesiastes 7:26-28

    26And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.

    27Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:

    28Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.

    I took this personality test, on how “manly” or “womanly” I am. I had a score of 80% feminine, and 20% masculine. Maybe you’ll have some time to see the website for yourself. You have to register first for free, but you will have unlimited access to numerous personality tests!

    Website: Tickle: Put Life to the Test

    Well, here are some of the “gender expectations” that I came up with based from my observations and studies.

    “Male” Attributes

    Physically unclean
    Aggressive
    Hot-tempered
    Does “manual” work, like plumbing, electronics, car mechanics, etc.
    Likes fights, brawls (aggressive…)
    Messy
    Knows little to no household chores
    Big
    More muscles than brains (otherwise you’ll be called a “wimp”)
    Do not cry (the old cliche)
    Insensitive and more on thoughts
    Strong
    Brave
    Head over heart
    Thrifty
    Reality bound
    Practical
    Sensible
    Likes sports
    Like rock music
    Firm in deciding
    Silent most of the time
    Competitive with other men (as we can see in the animal world)

    Then, “true” women should possess characteristics opposite of “true” men

    “Female” Attributes

    Physically neat (kikay?)
    Recessive
    Rational thinking
    Does household work, like cooking, washing and ironing clothes, dusting, etc.
    Kind-hearted and very sympathetic (recessive…)
    Neat and tidy
    Does most of the household chores
    Small body frame
    More brains than muscles (otherwise you’ll be called a “unlady-like”)
    Cries often (the old sensitivity indicator)
    Sensitive and more on emotions
    Weak
    Dormant
    Heart over head
    Loves shopping
    Fantasy bound
    Imaginative
    Sometimes irrational
    Like talk shows and soap operas
    More on love songs and spiritual songs
    Fickle-minded
    Talkative (gossips?)
    Inferior to men (as we can see in the animal world)

    So, the question still remains, are you a “true” man or woman? If so, how do you say so? What if, one day, you realized that you are “in love” with a member of the same gender, will that be a question of your “manhood” or “womanhood”? Or, do you have to engage to heterosexual relationship or heterosexual intercourse just to prove your “manliness” or “womanliness”? Then again, why do we need to prove anything? Is it to acquire the approval of other people? Then, if you “forced” or “denied” your love for a member of the same gender, will that be “more pleasing” to Him?

    I know this person who is probably so obsessed with his “masculinity” that he denied every feeling of love and affection for this certain person (nope; nobdoy around here know who he is or even seen him), who is also a member of the same gender. He let his moustache grow, he leaves his hair uncombed, he even broadcast to other people that he’s on a look out for “Relationship Women” and “Dating Women”. He makes his voice deep and throaty, and he tries to make his movements as rigid as possible. He even entertained approaches of flirty girls and even “encouraged” them, to prove that he is “a strong and a true man”. But, you know what? I think he almost did a lot of things that are seemingly against the Scriptures just because he was “dishonest” to himself and the one he greatly cared and loved. And now, they are both “in defense” of each other, and both are actually exhibiting “defense mechanisms” because they do not want to be hurt anymore.

    It’s easy to be critical and judge another person, especially if we are not on the limelight. But, let’s sit down and think about this for a second. Is manliness and femininity needed to be proven in the eyes of our Lord; is it even important to Him? What if one day, you realize that you have feelings to a close friend, a member of the same gender to say? What would you do? Ignore one another? Hate one another? Or perhaps, there is nothing really wrong to love a member of the same gender above all the other people we learned to love and care?

    Probably, in future articles, we might discuss this topic further, and put an eternal question to rest…

    To be continued…

    PS: I just had a re-take of the test, and I had a score of “7% masculine, 93% feminine.” Please answer the test as honestly as you can, and try not to “bend” anythting when answering!
    (end of article)

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    Sex and the Society
    by: Queen_Lyonesse
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    Even until now, I’m still a bit hesitant to continue to discuss the topic of this thread any further, at least not like this wherein many people can read what I have to say. So to speak, I find studying and researching about sex a bit uneasy too. I am, in a way, thankful that sometimes people who want to talk about sexual intercourse and the like do it in my absence. And when I am around and they are talking about it, they change their topics in a blink of the eye. Well, that was before anyway…

    Discussing about sex is never that easy for me. For some reason, a person once kept on inquiring about his questions about sex to me. I told him that I feel awkward discussing the topic. He said, “Be objective!” and laid some more questions at me. And I told him that the reason for my nervousness is that I somewhat told myself that I will only be discussing about sexual matter with the person I am to spend this lifetime with. And well, here I am, about to discuss about this topic.

    No; I don’t think sex is bad. Many people, parents specifically, sometimes give us notions when we were still children that this is “bad” or “sinful”. In fact, sexual education is hardly advised in schools and other educational institutions in the Philippines (well, except to health-related courses, of course!). Perhaps, it’s because there is a thin line between talking about it for information and another out of lust.

    Many people have argued about the nature of sexual intercourse. What is its purpose? How can we say that sexual intercourse is moral or immoral? What forms of sexual intercourse are more pleasurable than the other? Many books have been devised about this topic, for somehow, it is said that sexual intercourse is an expression of “love”.

    According to Catholic doctrine, sexual intercourse is performed by a man and a woman for two reasons 1) unitive purpose, which means that it is the ultimate expression of love, being able to make a couple come closer together, and 2) pro-creation, wherein it’s purpose is for the continuation of the species. In my investigation, two main fields are the focus of this topic which needs attention: 1) sexual orientation, or with whom a person finds sexual fulfillment with, and 2) sexual expression, the manner the individual shows his or her sexuality.

    As I have read in the Scriptures, sexual intercourse during early times is indeed pro-creative in nature, meaning people primarily do it to reproduce. Unless the use of sexual abilities is for the “continuance of the species,” then it is neither enjoyable nor acceptable. Having children back then seems the focus of different unions, be it marriage, concubinage, or whoredom. Although associating with whores where later deemed immoral, marriage and concubinage was very proliferate back then. So, we can see that sexual intercourse between two individuals of the same gender is “unacceptable”.

    Now, before we look to the present time view of sexual intercourse, let’s first analyze the various types of sexual orientation and sexual expression.

    Types of Sexual Orientation

    Sexual gratification is experienced in a number of ways. What is considered normal varies among cultures, although general components of accepted sexual activity are that privacy, consent, and lack of force are included. Most individual value systems are closely aligned to the cultural norm.

    Heterosexuality

    A heterosexual is one who finds sexual fulfillment with a member of the opposite gender. Because interest in the opposite sex and sexual relationships may begin as early as the beginning of puberty, health care providers need to provide information on safer sex practices and need for their use to children as young as 10 – 12 years of age for the knowledge to be most helpful.

    Homosexuality

    A homosexual is a person who finds sexual fulfillment with a member of his or her own sex. Many homosexual men prefer to use the term “gay.” Lesbian refers to a homosexual woman. Additional terms used are “men who have sex with me” an “women who have sex with women”.

    Why homosexual gender identity develops is unknown, although evidence that his orientation is genetically determined or develops because of the effect of an abnormal level of estrogen or testosterone in utero is increasing. Even before puberty, most individuals who are homosexual know they are “different” in that they are not interested in opposite-sex classmates. It is probably during adolescence, in seeking in seeking a sense of identity, that they realize that the reason why they feel “different” is because they are homosexual. This is a frightening time, because a homosexual identity may not be easily revealed to family or friends. Some people refuse to associate with homosexuals to such an extent that a fear exists, termed homophobia.

    Although gay and lesbian children often have demonstrated behavior that is inconsistent with expected gender roles from early childhood, young adulthood is the time most persons begin to assume a homosexual lifestyle. Many young adults are worried about the stigma of being labeled a homosexual and therefore keep their identity secret from heterosexual acquaintances. Others “commit” or “come out” or are able to reveal their sexual identity to friends and family.

    Bisexuality

    People who are bisexual if they achieve sexual satisfaction from both homosexual and heterosexual relationships. Gay and bisexual men may be at greater risk for HIV and STIs than others. Female partners of bisexual men need to be aware that they are at increased risk for HIV and other STIs.

    Transsexuality

    A transsexual or transgender is an individual who although of one biologic gender, feels as if he or she should be of the opposite gender. Such people may have sex change operations so that they may appear cosmetically as the sex they envision themselves to be. However, such operations do not change the person’s chromosomal structure.

    Types of Sexual Expression

    Because people are individuals, types of sexual expression are individualized.

    Celibacy

    Celibacy is abstinence from sexual activity. It is the avowed state of certain religious orders. It is also a way of life for a growing number of many adults and one that is becoming fashionable among a growing number of young adults. The theoretical advantage of celibacy is the ability to concentrate on means of giving and receiving love other than sexual expression.

    Masturbation

    Masturbation is self-stimulation for erotic pleasure; it can also be a mutually enjoyable activity for sexual partners. It offers sexual release, which is interpreted by the person as overall tension or anxiety release. Masters (1998) reported that women may find masturbation to orgasm the most satisfying sexual expression and use it more commonly than men. Children between 2 – 6 years of age discover masturbation as an enjoyable activity as they explore their bodies. Children who are under a high level of tension may become accustomed to using masturbation as a means of falling asleep at night or at naptime. They do this without any attempt at concealment because they have not yet been affected by society’s view that such activity should be private.

    Erotic Stimulation

    Erotic stimulation is the use of visual materials such as magazines or photographs for sexual arousal. Although this is thought to be mostly a male phenomenon, there is increasing interest in centerfold photographs in magazines primarily to women. Some parents of adolescents may need to be assured that an interest in this type of material is developmental and normal. Respect this type of reading material when straightening patient’s rooms in a health care facility.

    Transvestism

    A transvestite is an individual who dresses to take on the role of the opposite sex. Transvestites can be heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual. Some transvestites, particularly married heterosexuals, may be under a great deal of strain to keep their lifestyle a secret from friends and neighbors.

    Voyeurism

    Voyeurism is obtaining sexual arousal by looking at another’s sexual body. Almost all children and adolescents pass through a stage when voyeurism is appealing; this passes with more active sexual expressions. That some voyeurism exists in almost everyone is illustrated by the large number of R-rated movies shown on television and in movie theaters and by erotic descriptions in modern novels. Voyeurism may be practiced to the exclusion of other sexual experiences, but such an extreme probability reflects great insecurity or the inability to feel confident enough to relate to others on more personal levels. Stalking is a crime that includes elements of voyeurism.

    Sadomasochism

    Sadomasochism involves inflicting pain (sadism) or receiving pain (masochism) to achieve sexual satisfaction. It is a practice generally considered to be within limits of sexual expression as long as the pain involved is minimal and the experience is satisfying to both sexual partners.

    Autoerotic asphyxia is the extreme practice of causing oxygen deficiency (usually hanging) during masturbation with the goal of producing a feeling of extreme sexual excitement. Not aware that the act can be fatal, a number of adolescents are killed by this practice each year.

    Other Types of Sexual Expression

    A multitude of other types of sexual expression exist (e.g. exhibitionism, obscene phone calling, pedophilia, and bestiality). Exhibitionism is revealing one’s genitals in public. Pedophilias are individuals interested in sexual encounters with children. Known pedophiles are registered sex offenders. Bestiality refers to sexual expression between a human and an animal.

    Pilitteri, A. (2007). Maternity and Child Health Nursing: Care of the Childbearing and Childrearing Family. Fifth Edition. Lippincott Williams and Wilkins: Philippines

    Now, as I read the information stated above, there are questions, which if the readers would be so kind, I would like you to answer. Please take your time in answering these questions, because I myself am a bit clueless about this.

    1)How will we know if something is “sexual” in nature? Sigmund Freud once used the term “sex” to refer to “anything that is enjoyable or fulfilling.” Is sex confined only to the genitals? If other actions, such as kissing and hugging, can be considered “sexual” in nature, then how will we differentiate an action as having “sexual” implications or not?

    2)If being a heterosexual is having sexual gratification towards the opposite sex, and homosexuality is towards the same sex, and bisexuality is towards both sexes, then how will a person who has no sexual gratification be classified? Or, if I am not interested in having sex with any person at present, then will that automatically classify me under what? And, if I am to have a “sexual interest” with another person, wouldn’t that be more of “lust” by nature?

    3)If a person is a homosexual, then he/she is deprived of the right to love someone, much as a heterosexual person does? Why or why not? And how much “love” can be shown or expressed per se?

    4)If a person has sworn a vow of celibacy, then he/she should also abstain from other forms of sexual expression, such as masturbation? So if a person masturbates, then he/she is not really a celibate?

    5)How can we say that a picture/movie is “pornographic” (materials that may elicit sexual arousal) in nature? Our health-related books are crammed with pictures and drawing of people in nude, so will these be considered “immoral” since we’ve seen other people’s “nakedness” (refer to Adam and Eve)? If a person got “aroused” by such materials, then will this be a fault of the person who made the material or the person who got “aroused”? If a couple decides to watch a pornographic film together, allegedly for “reference”, then will this be considered an offense?

    6)If a person marries just to release sexual tension, then why shouldn’t that person just masturbate to get over his libido (sexual desire)? If a person married another just because he wants to release sexual tension, then wouldn’t this be considered “carnal” in nature?

    7)Referring to a commercial of a washing detergent product, under all circumstances, is it against the law for a person to wear clothing, which is for the opposite gender? How about a male actor playing out a female role? What articles of clothing are considered for men, for women, and unisexual? Why are men allowed to wear rings (refer to the story of the prodigal son), while women cannot if the reason would be the same as that of a man (a sign of “returning” back to the Lord)?

    8)Is “admiring” another person’s physical traits already considered as voyeurism? If so, then if a person “admires” another person of the same gender’s physical traits, the it is “sexual” in nature, hence a form of homosexuality?

    9)If “admiring” another’s physical traits considered voyeurism, then will this be counted unlawful, since looking at another person with lust in ones eyes can already be counted as sexual immorality? E.g. if a male person who “noticed” a female’s breast and referred to them as “large,” then will this be considered a sexual offense?

    10)As we know, a man must love his wife as his own body, and vice versa. Then, sadomasochism is against this commandment? What if both parties want to engage in such activities, will this be counted against them? Why or why not? Isn’t inflicting pain in essence, a manner of showing one’s love? Then, if not, will this follow that hurting the one we love (physically or otherwise) is not a form of “true” love?

    11)Is a person posing for nude against the law, specifically those who pose for “artistic endeavors” and the like? If so, why or why not? Will this be “sexual” in nature, or not?

    12) In the Scriputres, can anyone please site if there are passages that “penile-vaginal” intercourse is the only one which is “lawful?” And can you also site passages if any, what the Bible defines as “lawful sex” both in the Old and New Testaments? Thanks!

    Let’s keep things at this point for now, because I fear I might delve too deeply in studying this and end up doing an offense to the Lord, especially since this discussion could lead to “curiosity” and “arousal” to other people. Maybe, in future articles, they would be less sex-oriented by nature (but how could this be possible, if the thread’s topic is on homosexuality?).

    So, for now, please voice out your comments and analysis as well. Thank you!

    INTERMISSION…

  61. ============================================
    David and Jonathan
    by: Queen_Lyonesse
    ============================================

    It has been one of many great debates between non-believers and believers that the Bible contains “scenes that are not suitable for young audiences.” One of the much-argued points was the relationship between David and Jonathan. Similar to constant arguing about Jesus Christ’s relationship with His “alleged” wife/girlfriend Mary Magdalene, it has been stated by some that the connection between David and Jonathan was more than being “friends and brothers.”

    1 Samuel 18:1-4

    1And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

    2And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father’s house.

    3Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.

    4And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

    Author’s notes: I am not sure the real meaning of why Jonathan took of his garments and gave them to David, but most likely, it might have been a practice of acceptance within the household. According to the notes from the Christian Community Bible translation, “the Bible describes for us this deep and loyal friendship as a gift of God, overcoming the rivalry with Saul. He gave David his own mantle, his sword, his bow and belt…spontaneity, frankness and a disinterested love.”

    We can also see following this story that Saul’s daughter “fell in love” with David, and Saul used this as a means to devise a plan against David, for he grew envious of David.

    1 Samuel 18:20-30

    20And Michal Saul’s daughter loved David: and they told Saul, and the thing pleased him.

    21And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain.

    22And Saul commanded his servants, saying, Commune with David secretly, and say, Behold, the king hath delight in thee, and all his servants love thee: now therefore be the king’s son in law.

    23And Saul’s servants spake those words in the ears of David. And David said, Seemeth it to you a light thing to be a king’s son in law, seeing that I am a poor man, and lightly esteemed?

    24And the servants of Saul told him, saying, On this manner spake David.

    25And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king’s enemies. But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines.

    26And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king’s son in law: and the days were not expired.

    27Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king’s son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.

    28And Saul saw and knew that the LORD was with David, and that Michal Saul’s daughter loved him.

    29And Saul was yet the more afraid of David; and Saul became David’s enemy continually.

    30Then the princes of the Philistines went forth: and it came to pass, after they went forth, that David behaved himself more wisely than all the servants of Saul; so that his name was much set by.

    But since his plan was not a success, Saul thought of another means to get rid of David for good.

    1 Samuel 19:1-7

    1And Saul spake to Jonathan his son, and to all his servants, that they should kill David.

    2But Jonathan Saul’s son delighted much in David: and Jonathan told David, saying, Saul my father seeketh to kill thee: now therefore, I pray thee, take heed to thyself until the morning, and abide in a secret place, and hide thyself:

    3And I will go out and stand beside my father in the field where thou art, and I will commune with my father of thee; and what I see, that I will tell thee.

    4And Jonathan spake good of David unto Saul his father, and said unto him, Let not the king sin against his servant, against David; because he hath not sinned against thee, and because his works have been to thee-ward very good:

    5For he did put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistine, and the LORD wrought a great salvation for all Israel: thou sawest it, and didst rejoice: wherefore then wilt thou sin against innocent blood, to slay David without a cause?

    6And Saul hearkened unto the voice of Jonathan: and Saul sware, As the LORD liveth, he shall not be slain.

    7And Jonathan called David, and Jonathan shewed him all those things. And Jonathan brought David to Saul, and he was in his presence, as in times past.

    But Saul didn’t keep his word.

    1 Samuel 19:8-18

    8And there was war again: and David went out, and fought with the Philistines, and slew them with a great slaughter; and they fled from him.

    9And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

    10And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin: but he slipped away out of Saul’s presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped that night.

    11Saul also sent messengers unto David’s house, to watch him, and to slay him in the morning: and Michal David’s wife told him, saying, If thou save not thy life to night, to morrow thou shalt be slain.

    12So Michal let David down through a window: and he went, and fled, and escaped.

    13And Michal took an image, and laid it in the bed, and put a pillow of goats’ hair for his bolster, and covered it with a cloth.

    14And when Saul sent messengers to take David, she said, He is sick.

    15And Saul sent the messengers again to see David, saying, Bring him up to me in the bed, that I may slay him.

    16And when the messengers were come in, behold, there was an image in the bed, with a pillow of goats’ hair for his bolster.

    17And Saul said unto Michal, Why hast thou deceived me so, and sent away mine enemy, that he is escaped? And Michal answered Saul, He said unto me, Let me go; why should I kill thee?

    18So David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth.

    Later on, David consulted with Jonathan regarding the matter.

    1 Samuel 20:1-11

    1And David fled from Naioth in Ramah, and came and said before Jonathan, What have I done? what is mine iniquity? and what is my sin before thy father, that he seeketh my life?

    2And he said unto him, God forbid; thou shalt not die: behold, my father will do nothing either great or small, but that he will shew it me: and why should my father hide this thing from me? it is not so.

    3And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, there is but a step between me and death.

    4Then said Jonathan unto David, Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I will even do it for thee.

    5And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even.

    6If thy father at all miss me, then say, David earnestly asked leave of me that he might run to Bethlehem his city: for there is a yearly sacrifice there for all the family.

    7If he say thus, It is well; thy servant shall have peace: but if he be very wroth, then be sure that evil is determined by him.

    8Therefore thou shalt deal kindly with thy servant; for thou hast brought thy servant into a covenant of the LORD with thee: notwithstanding, if there be in me iniquity, slay me thyself; for why shouldest thou bring me to thy father?

    9And Jonathan said, Far be it from thee: for if I knew certainly that evil were determined by my father to come upon thee, then would not I tell it thee?

    10Then said David to Jonathan, Who shall tell me? or what if thy father answer thee roughly?

    11And Jonathan said unto David, Come, and let us go out into the field. And they went out both of them into the field.

    Jonathan loved David very much, as much as his own soul. And in David’s hour of need, he was there to help him. And they formed a covenant and asked God to bear witness.

    1 Samuel 20:12-42

    12And Jonathan said unto David, O LORD God of Israel, when I have sounded my father about to morrow any time, or the third day, and, behold, if there be good toward David, and I then send not unto thee, and shew it thee;

    13The LORD do so and much more to Jonathan: but if it please my father to do thee evil, then I will shew it thee, and send thee away, that thou mayest go in peace: and the LORD be with thee, as he hath been with my father.

    14And thou shalt not only while yet I live shew me the kindness of the LORD, that I die not:

    15But also thou shalt not cut off thy kindness from my house for ever: no, not when the LORD hath cut off the enemies of David every one from the face of the earth.

    16So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, Let the LORD even require it at the hand of David’s enemies.

    17And Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul.

    18Then Jonathan said to David, To morrow is the new moon: and thou shalt be missed, because thy seat will be empty.

    19And when thou hast stayed three days, then thou shalt go down quickly, and come to the place where thou didst hide thyself when the business was in hand, and shalt remain by the stone Ezel.

    20And I will shoot three arrows on the side thereof, as though I shot at a mark.

    21And, behold, I will send a lad, saying, Go, find out the arrows. If I expressly say unto the lad, Behold, the arrows are on this side of thee, take them; then come thou: for there is peace to thee, and no hurt; as the LORD liveth.

    22But if I say thus unto the young man, Behold, the arrows are beyond thee; go thy way: for the LORD hath sent thee away.

    23And as touching the matter which thou and I have spoken of, behold, the LORD be between thee and me for ever.

    24So David hid himself in the field: and when the new moon was come, the king sat him down to eat meat.

    25And the king sat upon his seat, as at other times, even upon a seat by the wall: and Jonathan arose, and Abner sat by Saul’s side, and David’s place was empty.

    26Nevertheless Saul spake not any thing that day: for he thought, Something hath befallen him, he is not clean; surely he is not clean.

    27And it came to pass on the morrow, which was the second day of the month, that David’s place was empty: and Saul said unto Jonathan his son, Wherefore cometh not the son of Jesse to meat, neither yesterday, nor to day?

    28And Jonathan answered Saul, David earnestly asked leave of me to go to Bethlehem:

    29And he said, Let me go, I pray thee; for our family hath a sacrifice in the city; and my brother, he hath commanded me to be there: and now, if I have found favour in thine eyes, let me get away, I pray thee, and see my brethren. Therefore he cometh not unto the king’s table.

    30Then Saul’s anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother’s nakedness?

    31For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.

    32And Jonathan answered Saul his father, and said unto him, Wherefore shall he be slain? what hath he done?

    33And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him: whereby Jonathan knew that it was determined of his father to slay David.

    34So Jonathan arose from the table in fierce anger, and did eat no meat the second day of the month: for he was grieved for David, because his father had done him shame.

    35And it came to pass in the morning, that Jonathan went out into the field at the time appointed with David, and a little lad with him.

    36And he said unto his lad, Run, find out now the arrows which I shoot. And as the lad ran, he shot an arrow beyond him.

    37And when the lad was come to the place of the arrow which Jonathan had shot, Jonathan cried after the lad, and said, Is not the arrow beyond thee?

    38And Jonathan cried after the lad, Make speed, haste, stay not. And Jonathan’s lad gathered up the arrows, and came to his master.

    39But the lad knew not any thing: only Jonathan and David knew the matter.

    40And Jonathan gave his artillery unto his lad, and said unto him, Go, carry them to the city.

    41And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.

    42And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the LORD, saying, The LORD be between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed for ever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into the city.

    Much had happened between Saul and David’s rivalry. In the process, Michal was married to another man, and David took two wives, namely Ahinoam and Abigail.

    1 Samuel 25:43-44

    43David also took Ahinoam of Jezreel; and they were also both of them his wives.

    44But Saul had given Michal his daughter, David’s wife, to Phalti the son of Laish, which was of Gallim.

    What happened to Jonathan? He died in battle, along with his brothers and his father, Saul.

    1 Samuel 31:1-6

    1Now the Philistines fought against Israel: and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa.

    2And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Melchishua, Saul’s sons.

    3And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers.

    4Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.

    5And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.

    6So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.

    When David heard of this, he was very much grieved. Although Saul wronged him in many ways, he still lamented Saul’s death.

    2 Samuel 1:11-17

    11Then David took hold on his clothes, and rent them; and likewise all the men that were with him:

    12And they mourned, and wept, and fasted until even, for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for the people of the LORD, and for the house of Israel; because they were fallen by the sword.

    13And David said unto the young man that told him, Whence art thou? And he answered, I am the son of a stranger, an Amalekite.

    14And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the LORD’s anointed?

    15And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died.

    16And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD’s anointed.

    17And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son:

    For David, Jonathan’s love was more than that of women.

    2 Samuel 1:25-26

    25How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places.

    26I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

    Author’s Notes: According to my studies, I have learned that “love” in Hebrew is very wide in the sense that, there is a “masculine” and “feminine” for of love. And in this passage, it was stated that Jonathan’s love for David was in a “feminine” sense.

    Love – H160
    אהבה
    ‘ahăbâh
    a-hab-aw’
    Feminine of H158 and meaning the same: – love.

    There are other words associated to love. Please note that “love” can be a noun and a verb, so their use can be different. Here are the following:

    Love – H4480
    מנּי מנּי מן
    min minnîy minnêy
    min, min-nee’, min-nay’
    For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: – above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

    Love – H157 (Most Used to Signify Love)
    אהב אהב
    ‘âhab ‘âhêb
    aw-hab’, aw-habe’
    A primitive root; to have affection for (sexually or otherwise): – (be-) love (-d, -ly, -r), like, friend.

    Love – H158
    אהב
    ‘ahab
    ah’-hab
    From H157; affection (in a good or a bad sense): – love (-r).

    Love – H157
    אהב אהב
    ‘âhab ‘âhêb
    aw-hab’, aw-habe’
    A primitive root; to have affection for (sexually or otherwise): – (be-) love (-d, -ly, -r), like, friend.

    Love – H2836
    חשׁק
    châshaq
    khaw-shak’
    A primitive root; to cling, that is, join (figuratively) to love, delight in; elliptically (or by interchange for H2820) to deliver: – have a delight, (have a) desire, fillet, long, set (in) love.

    Love – H4480
    מנּי מנּי מן
    min minnîy minnêy
    min, min-nee’, min-nay’
    For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: – above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

    Love – H7355
    רחם
    râcham
    raw-kham’
    A primitive root; to fondle; by implication to love, especially to compassionate: – have compassion (on, upon), love, (find, have, obtain, shew) mercy (-iful, on, upon), (have) pity, Ruhamah, X surely.

    Love – H1730
    דּד דּוד
    dôd dôd
    dode, dode
    From an unused root meaning properly to boil, that is, (figuratively) to love; by implication a love token, lover, friend; specifically an uncle: – (well-) beloved, father’s brother, love, uncle.

    Love – H7474
    רעיה
    ra‛yâh
    rah-yaw’
    Feminine of H7453; a female associate: – love.

    Strong’s Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries

    I am not sure if they had “homosexual” feelings for one another, but as we can see, they felt themselves “knit to each other’s souls” and their love for one another surpassed even the love they have for women. Their love made them go through a lot of challenges, and they felt much sadness when they parted ways. As I look at the two of them, I know that their love was a definite form of “agape”, and for me, their love for one another is very ideal and enduring.

    ============================================

  62. Bro. Eli once again has enlightened me. I for one, once believed that a homosexual will never inherit the kingdom of God. But now I fully understand that homosexuals are not sodomites and sodomites are not homosexuals. Sodomites are sexual perverts that will not inherit the kingdom of God!
    I now realized that there were homosexuals even in the first century church who were faithfully obeying God’s law and as such will inherit the kingdom of God.
    I also realized that there is no need for a homosexual to change his being and pretend to be a real man to be saved but instead live according to the gospel of Christ.
    So, it doesn’t matter whether someone is a woman, or a man, or a homosexual before the eyes of the Lord. What matters is our obedience with the gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
    This is another proof that the Spirit of God dwells in bro. Eli and keeps on giving him understanding of the Scriptures.
    I firmly believed that whatever other people may say about him, that cannot change the fact that Bro. Eli has a gift of understanding from God that no one among all the pastors, priests or religious leaders can refute. As the prophet Daniel had clearly written the words of God he had received: “Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and NONE OF THE WICKED SHALL UNDERSTAND; BUT THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND” ( Daniel 12:10 ). Does bro. Eli has the gift of understanding from God? Definitely! Hence, my beloved preacher is not wicked in the eyes of the Lord! He is wise in the eyes of our God!
    To God Be The Glory Forever and Ever! Thanks be to God
    forever and ever!

  63. brother Eli Soriano i really believe that you are the only one sensible preacher in our time! i always praying that God gives you more days or years to leave and to preach the gospel of God! Always Take Care brother Eli Soriano!

  64. Pingback: Hypocrites’ testament « elman, the man

  65. The Homosexual Delusion

    There are not many excuses for divorce; if you can prove that God did not sanction your union then it is okay to separate, as in the case of sodomites. It is actually very important for any and all gays who may have entered into a union that is unnatural to divorce. Some say Jesus did not say anything against gays, this ignores the fact that he came not to condemn anyone. Jesus states that in heaven there will be no marriages or divorces. (Mark 12:25) This means a gay person who creates an unnatural union would have to bring their sin into a perfect heaven. It is beyond laughable to think of gays parading around heaven. If you are gay or know a gay person, it is imperative that you tell them not to get married. If both gay people died then they would bring their sin into a perfect sinless heaven and that’s not going to happen. Some say Jesus did not speak against homosexuals but the truth is he has done far more. There is no sin in heaven and no one is getting divorced.

  66. Mga kapatid sa pananampalataya, nais ko lang sanang ibahagi ang kuwento ng buhay ko.
    Magtatagalog nalang po ako kasi di ako magaling mag-English. Isa rin po akong abnormal pero sa awa ng Diyos ay nakakapamuhay ng malinis. Bata pa ako ay natutunan ko na na magtiwala sa Diyos dahil sa dami ng pagsubok na pinagdaanan ko. Pero sa kabila ng lahat ng yun, naranasan ko at patuloy na nararanasan ang kabutihan at pag-ibig ng Diyos. Simula sa pagkabata ay nagbabasa na ako ng bible kaya ito ang nagsilbing gabay ko sa paglakad sa katuwiran dahil bata pa ako, napansin ko nang kakaiba ako kasi humahanga at tumitibok ang puso ko sa katulad kong kasarian, pero wala akong muwang noon sa mga bagay tungkol sa sex kasi nga bata pa ako, sa puso ko naramdaman na di ako normal pati sa hilig at interes ko sa laro.
    Ngunit minsan sa buhay ko, naranasan kong matukso. Nangyari yun ng 19 years old ako, tatlong beses akong nakaranas na tuksuhin ng babae, nakaiwas ako sa dalawa, sa pangatlo, dun po ako bumigay dahil nahamon ako. Pero nang maranasan ko yun, nakita ko na wala naman sa ganun ang pagmamahal, nakakasawa din yun. Nakita ko na pagmahal mo na talaga ng tunay ang isang tao, di na nagiging mahalaga masyado yung “sex”. Kahit wala yun pwede tayong magmahal. Pagkatapos ng naranasan kong yun ay nagmahal ako ng isang babae, ayaw nya sa katulad ko, pinilpilit nya nga akong magbago noon, di nya ako mabago sa pakiusap kaya ginawa nya, ininsulto nya ako dahil maaaring yun ang paraan nya para mabago ako. Sabi nya, kung iiyak lang rin sya, sa tunay na lalaki na at hindi sa katulad ko dahil may kaibigan kami noon na naiyak dahil di sila nagkaunawaan ng karelasyon nya na tulad ko. Sabi pa nya sa akin, hindi mangyayari na papatol sya sa katulad ko. Conservative kasi sya at ralihiyosa, nung makilala ko sya, di pa sya nagkakaroon ng katipan at mas matanda sya sa akin. Pero nahamon ako sa sinabi nya kaya sinabi ko sa sarili ko na darating ang araw na mapapamahal din ako sa kanya kahit ganito ako. Naging magkaibigan parin kami kahit para kaming aso at pusa, iginalang ko sya at nirespeto at naging tunay na kaibigan sa kanya hanggang dumating ang panahon na minahal nya ako. Halos 5 taon yung espesyal na pagkakaibigan namin, wala kaming usapan na kami pero nasasabi ko sa kanya na mahal ko sya at iginalang at iningatan ko sya. Masaya na ako na nahahalikan ko sya sa noo at kamay. Pero dumating ang panahon na nagulo kami dahil sa mga sinasabi ng mga tao sa paligid, wala naman kaming ginagawang masama pero masama ang iniisip nila at inuusig nila kami at pinagtsitsismisan. Nakita ko na naguguluhan sya, masaya kami pag magkasama pero nakikita ko na di nya kakayanin yung sinasabi ng iba. Kaya nung may nagkagusto sa kanya, pinaubaya ko sya. Mahirap kasi kahit nalayo ako, lumalapit sya sa akin, ayaw nyang lumayo ako, pero nakita ko na seryoso at mabait yung lalaki kaya iniwasan ko talaga sya at hindi pinansin kahit napakasakit sa akin. Bago sya ikasal, pinuntahan nya ako sa bahay ko at umiiyak sya, mahal pa din nya ako pero di nya daw ako kayang ipaglaban, napasubo na sya. Sabi ko, okay lang ako, mas mabuti na mag-asawa nalang sya kesa maguluhan sya na kasama ako, sabi ko, hindi ko sya pipigilan. Alam ko naman kasi kung ano ako at alam ko na marami akong bagay na di maibibigay sa kanya tulad ng kasal at pamilya na pinapangarap nya.
    Yun na ata ang pinakamasakit na naranasan ko kasi mahal na mahal ko sya, pero nakayanan ko naman na mapagtagumpayan yung sakit, pinili ko parin na maging masaya at masigla, sa tulong ng Diyos. Wala akong ginawa noon kundi magbasa ng bible at makinig ng christian music, tapos umiyak, hanggang dumating ang araw na gumaling na yung sakit na nararamdaman ko, halos isang taon mahigit yun.
    Ngayon, 29 na ako pero hindi na naulit yung naging karanasan ko sa babae. Natutunan ko lang na ang babae ay dapat iginagalang at iniingatan. Ang tunay na lalaki ay dapat may respeto sa babae, kaya kahit andun yung sexual desire, sa pamamagitan ng tunay na pagmamahal, matututo syang magpigil at magtiis upang maingatan at mapanatiling malinis ang babaeng minamahal pati na rin ang sarili, handa syang magtiis at maghintay sa tamang panahon na pwede na nyang angkinin ang mahal nya, ihahanda nya muna ang kanyang sarili at kabuhayan. Masuwerte ang mga tunay na lalaki kasi pag may minahal sila na babae pwedeng-pwede nilang makasama habang buhay kasi pwede silang ikasal at magkaroon ng pamilya. Kaya naiinis ako sa mga lalaki na nagsasamantala sa kahinaan ng mga babae, sayang ang pagiging tunay na lalaki nila, di sila marunong magmahal ng tunay sa babae.
    Sa ngayon, inilagay ko na sa isip ko na nakalaan na akong mag-isa. May mga nagkakagusto parin sa akin na mga babae hanggang ngayon, mga mas bata pa sa akin pero kapatid at kaibigan lang talaga ang turing ko sa kanila. Minsan lang kasi ako magmaghal at totoo yun, naranasan ko na rin namang mahalin ng tunay kahit ganito ako kaya sapat na sa akin yun. At higit sa lahat, natagpuan ko na ang tunay na pagmamahal- kay Jesus. Kaya wala na akong mahihiling pa, kuntento ako sa kalagayan ko ngayon at ang nais kong gawin ay patuloy na maglingkod sa Diyos ay mahalin ang aking kapwa tao.
    Medyo may problema lang ako ngayon kasi ang mga kasama ko sa church gusto nila na magpaka-babae ako. Kasalanan daw kasi ang maging ganito. Eh di ko naman mababago itong sarili ko kasi ito talaga ako. Ang mahalaga sa akin ay namumuhay ako ngayon ng malinis, pero di parin nila ako maunawaan, kaya pray nalang ako na sana pagdating ng araw, maunawaan nila ang kalagayan ng mga katulad ko at tanggapin. Salamat kay Bro. Eli dahil andun ang pang-unawa at compassion nya sa mga taong katulad ko, at higit sa lahat, salamat sa Diyos na nagmahal sa akin ng walang kundisyon.
    God bless us all!

  67. Condemn the evil deeds of man not the man.

    Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

  68. Since when is salvation by the blood of Christ reserved for heterosexuals?
    Anyone who accepts Christ as his/her Savior is saved by Him, regardless what.
    And since salvation is by grace alone – not by our own doing, all who believe in Him are saved. Afterward, the longing to do God’s will, will grow as a result of it. If this includes turning away from a certain life style, God will perhapps give the strenght to do this, but if one is weak and cannot turn form this, it does not affect his/her salvation, as that is an acceptance from God’s gift, not through any achievement from ourselves! If blue was your favorite color before your salvation, it will most likely be the same afterward, unless God changes it!

  69. am in process of writing my research paper about homosexuals and am one of them!thanks Mr. Soriano!!!!
    Keep it up!

  70. They go to hell and it’s not possible to be only a pervert without being gay and wanting to giggity with the same gender. The Bible says they go to hell. If God meant for that then it would have been Adam, Eve, and Steve.

  71. This is God’s way

    [KJV] Genesis 1:27-28

    “27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”

    He didn’t create the male and pair him with another male or a female to pair her to another female. This is how we should view and recognize God’s authority about this matter.

    Now, if you profess that you are a homosexual then you are a sinner and worthy of condemnation but if you want to be saved and go to heaven, then you will need Jesus to wash away your sins with his blood and he will save you.

    Acts 3:19 “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”

    • I agree with you John E.

      Soriano is portraying homosexuality as a handicap here.
      Aligning it with the blind and mute.
      That is just plain stupid.

      Homosexuality is a sin.
      A conscious choice on the part of the person.
      Not from God.

      Homosexuality is a sin so detestable God fast-forwarded Hellfire for Sodom and Gomorrah.
      Imagine that.

      What God calls detestable, Soriano calls ‘natural’, what is an abomination for God, is okay for Soriano.

      What a heretic.

  72. That’s not a surprise considering Soriano’s reputation about the bible. There so much scripture to support and defend this allegation. My advice is study more about what the bible stand about homosexuality and please don’t take things out of context and not looking on all aspect of the truth. It doesn’t mean that everyone agree with compromise the truth.

  73. To Rasec and John E.,

    Biblically speaking, what is sin anyway?

    ‘Sin is transgression of the law,’ according to 1 John 3:4.

    Now, how could a status, and an inborn status at that be sin?

    So they transgressed the law by being born? That’s utter nonsense.

  74. I was once believed that being homosexual per se is a sin and confused it with sodomy. But after hearing the doctrines of Members Church of God International thru Bro. Eli Soriano, my belief before washed out and now I understand, thanking God, that regardless of gender and status in life, salvation is attainable as long as we follow to our Lord Jesus Christ’s law.

    This article is worth-sharing and must be read.

  75. Wow your understanding of the scripture is totally deceptive a homosexual is one who are attractive to the same sex if they are save in grace then John 15 vers6-8 says if you abide in my word and my word abide in you meanings old things should have past away the point you cannot be a homosexual and inherit the king Dom of God… God is not mark what ever a man sows that he also will reap.

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