This is a partial reply to the comment made by my reader, Scott Fogg, regarding the article entitled, “The Church Of The Bible: The Only 100% True Church”. In the first part of his comment, Scott wrote the following:
“I’m confused. If Esther, as Queen, was not a leader, what do you consider her? She was, by rank and title, a nation’s leader, was she not? Was she not the one that Mordecai went to, to bend the ear of the king, to save the Jews from slaughter? Did she not lead others in prayer?
Moreover, it does not seem God would discriminate indiscriminately. I seem to recall a time when He even enlisted in the help of a mule to talk one of His prophets into doing his will. Now, I don’t think it’s God’s M.O. to appoint animals into leadership positions, but He always seems to use those that are willing and able. So if God can and will talk through a donkey, why would He not send a vision to a woman? For that is all we claim Ellen White to be or have been, a prophet — one who received a direct, divine message…”
Dear Scott,
There is a saying that, “Behind every great man is a great woman”. Esther is not a leader, but an influential figure to Mordecai, the chief minister of King Ahasuerus, and to the King himself. She is neither a prophetess as Seventh Day Adventists claim for Ellen G. White.
Understanding the Bible in its context will teach you that women are not intended to be leaders of God’s people. Consider the following reasons:
Throughout the history of God’s people, the Israelites, it is God’s will that His chosen nation or people be perpetually lead by a man.
(1 King 9:5) “Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.”
(1 King 8:25) “Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.”
(2 Chronicles 6:16) “Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.”
(Jeremiah 33:17) “For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel…”
Such principle applied to the people of God in the New Testament times.
(1 Timothy 2:11-14) “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.”
Consider the rationale for the creation of the woman.
(Genesis 2:18) “And the LORD God said, it is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him.”
(1 Corinthians 11:9-10) “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.”
By this, God does not “indiscriminately discriminate” women. He is just standing on His principle and the original idea of creation. This was understood by the authorities of the New Testament.
(1 Corinthians 14:34) “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.”
In The Church of God, we have a high esteem and respect for our women brethren but, we stand to the divine principle outlined by God in the Bible, and respect God above our women.
There are collateral realities to consider. Women have caused the fall of some of the great men of God in the Bible. Adam, the best example was convinced by Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Solomon was separated from God by his women. Samson fell prey to the Philistine through Delilah.
(Ecclesiastes 7:26) “And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.”
There are also prophetic realities to consider:
(Isaiah 3:12) “As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.”
Just the thought of a woman leading God’s people spells destruction.
(Jeremiah 51:30) “The mighty men of Babylon have forborne to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken.”
For God’s will to be fulfilled that His people or chosen nation be led perpetually by a man, He proclaimed the coming of an eternal leader in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Isaiah 9:6) “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
Remember, as promised by God, the throne of David will be ruled by men, not by any chance, a woman!
(1 King 9:5) “Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.”
I welcome your notion that God has the right to use those that are willing and able to be instruments in making His will be known unto people; But I am sorry you gave a wrong example when you mentioned that a mule was used by God to speak to one of His prophets. For your information, Balaam is not a prophet of God, neither; the mule is willing and able, because animals were not given the free-will like men, to be willing to obey God. They are always subjective to God’s will, whether they like it or not.
(Jude 1:11) “Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.”
FYI, Balaam is a Mesopotamian prophet for hire! He is not an Israelite, whose home was Pethor, near the Euphrates River in Northern Mesopotamia.
It would have been better if you used Luke 19:40.
“And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.”
Even stones can be made by God to cry out or to speak God’s will, but that is only if the apostles will “hold their peace” and keep silent.
See the point?
To be continued…
God Bless!
EFS
Related Articles:
The Church Of The Bible: The Only 100% True Church
Are We Being Pretentious? Who Cares?!
The Church Of God Is Needed For Salvation
esoriano 
I’m not sure these women “caused” these men to fall. It’s a bit of a stretch to blame women for man’s weakness. We are responsible for our own choices. What about all the men who have caused other men to fall?
Paul
Whew! Reading such explanation using verses spontaneously from the Bible by the only sensible preacher never stops to amaze me! And still, there is a continuation to that!
Can anybody tell me how could it be any better than this?
More power to you Bro. Eli … Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift to us … and that includes you!
Amen!
Why are you so persistent as to take other passages from the Bible just to proved that your leader, a woman, is considered a leader when it is against the Bible and that no account(s) in Christ Ministry a woman was considered a disciple?
Are you a Bible believer or do you realy study the Bible?
Then what is true is that you lean in your own understanding and that you defend a belief in which Christ never spoke of!
I was a seventh day adventist student during my elementary days, and I am so sorry to say this.
Let God speak and not man as to who is a bonafied leader in the Church of God, so please be reasonable and let the Bible speak.
More Power to you Brother Eli
GOD Bless in CHRIST
ssD! May God always give you the physical strength to continually do his will.
The essence of marginalism is to give way for women to attain their potential with the belief that women were so much left behind and it’s high time for them to get out from the back seat.
But this issue is being raised by those who studied economics and social sciences that did not regard the doctrines in the bible.
What I have observe and obviously seen as a result of this ideology, that before women, even in the poorest part of society are able to instill good filipino values in their children.
What about now? Women are working, leaving their kids in the hands of those whose does not care enough for the kids but rather for the salary. Let us say not for the salary but look how the love that is shared between family members take different turns. Children did not learn how a love from a parent is therefore when they grow up, they become incapable to also take care of their own kids.
Now, should the essence of marginalism was imparted this way: to give women a fair chance to learn the doctrine and be able to follow it accordingly, then, our lives would have been better off.
As what Bro Eli imparts to this post that women have a role to play in the church. Actually this role will end too because like men, women in the church are preparing and also looking forward to: when humans become like to angels.
1 Corinthians 15:
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
What women christian should portray today is not to lead christian men but rather be one with men in fighting the good fight of faith!
Let us lead by example:
Jesus, lead the church by example
Ministers, leading the brethren by example
Men, leading the family by example
Women, leading their children by example.
church, leading the outsiders by example.
This is how a Christian organization works.
You can outrightly differentiate if a woman is a true Christian, by way of her actions, taste in clothing, values, even her personality.
There is no EGO in her. She knows that she is a servant too like men, but then again, she knows where to place herself. That is because she knows the doctrine.
Even Jesus knows where to place himself:
Philippians 2:
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
With the sensitivity of issues concerning women empowerment, women’s liberalization and women’s right these days… it would not be easy to accept the rationale of our creation and our role in this world!
Had you not supported your statement with verses in the Bible, it would be so difficult to ingest the simple idea that women can never be man’s equal….
But your explanation backed up with verses from the Bible can truly be an eye opener. I hope that you will continue to write logical explanations of controversial issues that has been debated for so long, but never had any closure.
More Power
It’s interesting that you should mention Luke 19:40. For in the history of the Adventist Church, the visions that Ellen White had were first given to a man. But when this man refused to share what God had given him, God turned to Ellen and gave her the visions. It was only after she began to share what God had shown her that this man was emboldened to step forward and share what God had shown him as well.
And as far as Balaam goes, does it really matter whether or not he was an Israelite? God still spoke to him through the mule.
Regardless of whether or not you believe Ellen White was a prophetess, your interpretation of the Bible is marginalizing women. While I do believe there are things that women are better suited for (and likewise, men), to say that women have no place outside of the home is silly and insulting.
When Jesus and His apostles were preaching, it was in a very different world. Can you imagine if a woman had risen up to lead the church in 30 AD? It would have been too subversive for any culture or religion to handle at the time. The church would have been ignored or destroyed entirely. Which is why you have Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles downplaying the role of the woman in the church. But today, in the 21st century, there is no reason that a woman can’t lead.
Shouldn’t the Christian church be empowering all of its members? God doesn’t change, but society does. That’s only logical. And we see God working in new and exciting ways every day. Why would you want to limit God by effectively taking away half His congregation and relegating them to the kitchen?
I don’t see how any of this is “sensible,” and my study of the Bible has *NOT* led me into the same understanding it somehow had led you. I’m sorry.
-=Scott
Luke (companion of Paul) chapter 2: verses 36-38
Dedication of Jesus at the Temple, after the statements of Simeon. ( not a prophet, but spirit of God upon him)
36: “And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of great age,…..
37: ……a widow…., which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38: And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.”
Is Ellen White any ‘more’ than Anna was? …or any less?
This entire argument hinges on the statement by Bro. Eli: “Understanding the Bible in its context will teach you that women are not (intended) to be leaders of God’s people.” —-brackets added—
By this statement I could add that the story of Hezekiah is false because when God made the sun in it’s orbit He never intended for it to go backward, and the story of Balaam is false because God did not create donkeys to talk.
Likewise, God did not intend Ellen White to be the prophet for the time of the cleansing of the heavenly temple, but His message had been rejected by ‘two’ men that where the intended. So God chose Ellen White to be ‘the donkey’ to rebuke the men of our time; the spineless men who don’t have the balls of faith that E.White had.
P.S. rocks don’t cry out either.
I am a woman.
I find the article very sensible. I agree with the explanations made because it is based in the Bible and not by a man’s own analysis.
I feel sorry for those who will not agree and I shouldn’t wonder.
I am amazed to this preacher because he really makes sense.
HI AGAIN ,SCOTT,
just want to share something….
it is sad that some people,born into false religions…like me, when i was born into a catholic faith…was raised to embraced idolatry….and i was not aware it was blasphemy towards OUR GOD….just as my parents were…as my deceased
grandparents were also…………
BUT what they believed and what they did teach doesnt guarantee that what they taught is in truth……….not unless one have scrutinized its teachings based on its basis….which is the bible.or the best thing there is to do is to search for truth.why?because there’s a promise from GOD.IF WE SEARCH…WE SHALL FIND!
but what a great thing….IF WE DIDNT SEARCH AND FOUND TRUTH!Can anyone measure GOD’S MERCY?
FINDING GOD’S TRUTH thru BRO.ELI’S FAITHFUL BIBLICAL TEACHINGS opened my eyes…..particularly,that CHRISTIANITY belies all false religions….and belies false christs in this world.CAN THERE BE MANY TRUE CHRISTS? THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD…..EPH.4:5 BUT LOOK….EXAMINE THE CHRIST WE ARE IN……..
CHRIST GAVE US LEAD TO KNOW THE TRUTH…..
JOHN 7:17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself
IT IS THRU THE DOCTRINES THAT ONE SHALL KNOW…..HOW THEN?
THEY ARE ALL WRITTEN…..THAT NO ONE MAY BOAST….1 COR 4:6
SO,if we are born into a catholic church….is it in truth?is it written?
if we are born in a jehovah witnesses group….is it in truth?is it written?
GOD ‘s house is called in HIS NAME.THE PROOF?
1TIM 3:15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth
2 COR 1:1 CHURCH OF GOD
GOD’S house is not called in ROME’s name….nor the fabricated jehovah…..nor MORMONS…NOR ETC……
let’s be disciplined by things written….THAT NO ONE MAY BOAST
2 CHRO 7:14If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
PAUL was called in the CHURCH OF GOD…1 COR 1;1-2,2 COR 1;1
again, it is reiterated by the epistles of the bible…..IF PEOPLE FOUNDED THEIR OWN CHURCH…..THEY HAVE REJECTED THE TRUE CHURCH WHICH IS WRITTEN….EVEN REJECTING CHRIST WHICH IS ITS HEAD…….AND WHY? AS PAUL STATED…… THEY ARE IGNORANT OF GOD’S RIGHTEOUSNESS..
AND THE RESULT OF THEIR IGNORANCE?
THEY FOUNDED AND ESTABLISHED THEIR OWN.
ROM 10:3For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God
NOW,IF WE KNOW THEY ARE BLIND….HOW CAN THEY LEAD US TO TRUTH?
SHALL WE JUST EMBRACE CHURCHES FOUNDED ON LIES?
IS THERE A PROMISE OF SALVATION IF WE CLING TO THINGS WE FOUND OUT TO BE IN LIES?
THERE’S TRUTH IN THE MIDST OF THIS WORLD OF LIARS…BUT ONE NEEDS TO INVEST TIME TO FIND IT.
PRO.2:4If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God
IT IS CLEARLY STATED.IF WE FOUND TRUTH….THE WISDOM OF GOD…..THEN WE MUST POSSESS THE FEAR OF THE LORD.
BUT IF TRULY,THERE IS FEAR OF THE LORD…WHY DOES SOME PEOPLE CLEAVE TO UNFOUNDED AND INVENTED TEACHINGS?
SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS WILL NOT LEAD US TO GOD BUT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WILL,…. IF WE ABIDE IN IT TILL THE END…..MAT 10:22
To Scott,
Truly there are womens who are capable of leading in associations, civic, society, politics, etc. etc. but when speaks of the bible, it is still prohibited for a women to take leadership over the congregation or the church, they can be an assistance just what like God, proposed when He made Eve as an assistance to Adam…
To Scott Fogg
You said… “don’t see how any of this is “sensible,” and my study of the Bible has *NOT* led me into the same understanding it somehow had led you. I’m sorry.”
I pitty you because….
II Tim 3:7 – “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Do you know why you will never able to come to the knowledge of truth?
Daniel 12:9-10 – “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand.”
Do not just listen and close you heart to Ellen White’s doctrine. Do not limit yourself to just believing her… for it is also God’s commandment that…
I Juan 4:1 – “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
Instead, do yourself a big favor, open your heart and study with Bro. Eli….. you can even put him to test by asking him everything that Ellen White taught you and compare, compare, compare. In the end the truth will prevail.
May God have mercy on you!
I’m beginning to have doubts on your study.
Let me ask you a question, are you studying the Bible alone in search for the Truth? Or are you introducing other books to incorporate with the Holy Scriptures?
BEWARE!! YOU MUST NOT!!!!
Because if you do this, it would be the BIGGEST MISTAKE of your life as your preacher has done.
Isaiah 34:16
Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall
want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
The Bible can stand by itself. You just need a seer to point all the verses you need to know for you to read!!
Bro. Eli is showing you all the truth in the Bible verse by verse, chapter to chapter.
It is just sad and unfair to arrive yourself into your own assumptions without showing proofs of verses in the Bible. Is he not giving you the facts?
It’s just plain and simple. Woman of God according to the Bible must learn their place. It is God’s will that the woman must learn in silence with all subjection in the ministry. If you are a woman and you want to follow God’s will, you should do what God wants you to do. Otherwise you are refusing God’s will.
You are insisting that your woman-leader is of god. Yet she didn’t recognize the verses Bro. Eli’s have shown you. Have you asked yourself does she truly read the Bible?
If she does, she might come across those verses. She might have shut her mouth long time ago and ignore those so-called vision of hers.
My point is I could make-up with my own versions of visions and claim it that it is from a higher heavenly authority. Moreso I am a man. But God forbid! I am not worthy.
Have you ask yourself, Does Ms. White only made-up those visions? Or does she simply ignore the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures? Is the Holy Scriptures not enough for your salvation?
Jeremiah 29:8
For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.
My suggestion is stick to the Bible. Learn from it, ask Bro. Eli and ask God for enlightenment. Don’t be fooled by the visions claimed by others you don’t even know.
Test them if they are of God. Ask Bro. Eli. To God be the Glory!!!
to Scott,
the “Church” that we’re talking about here is the Church which doctrines and commandments are based from the proposal to His Son before the world begun. It’s hinted from Jesus’ prayer, “thy kingdom come, thy will be done, for how it is from heaven let it also be from earth”. The direct will of the Father is that women should keep in silence in the presence of God Almighty in the Church. You probably can’t realize the will of the Father through Jesus Christ. This not an ordinary Church you have in mind. It is the Church that mankind are looking for today. And many have come to disguise it but when they are tried in the doctrines of the true Church that are written in the scriptures, by the apostle’s letters to the believers, they failed one by one. Just like yours, bro. Eli are laying out all passages in the scriptures to prove that your church is not based on the foundation that God had built. It is clearly understandable to everybody that you have a different foundation of which you allow women to usurp over men. Surely, this is not God’s kingdom. Until now, you still can’t see the truth. I’m sorry for you. The more bro. Eli tried in the light of the scriptures, the more you insist your own opinion. The more you hardened your heart. Anyway, It’s up to you now. ssD
I am a woman and I have been performing some leadership tasks in the society and in the organization I belong to. Though most of the people say that I am a leader… I always get back to them and tell them that I am not their leader but a mere follower and servant…. that I am just a facilitator… that I am at His service.
Rationally speaking, a leader is first and foremost a servant. And making decisions that would affect your people is critical not to the welfare of the leader alone but to the welfare of those he leads.
As a woman, I find Bro. Eli’s article sensible and I am always glad and relieved that God places man to lead. For I find it in my heart that my worthiness is measured by the amount of care that I can share to my friends and brethrens. I leave the decision to those whom God had given His word and He never fails my expectations. His men, those who really exude and perform His will, never go astray and I find it easier to listen to them and ask their assistance.
Keeping silent (as His rule to women) gives us much wisdom than talking incessantly. By listening you learn and you understand. The same principle practiced by counselors. Listen first and understand first before you speak. In the end you will find in yourself that you don’t need to speak at all for the answer is given already.
I thank God for a man like you, Bro. Eli.
to scott,
give yourself a chance to dig deeper on your beliefs…
you know if EGW is real messenger of God she will teach all the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ? or mostly you base your beliefs on old testament like sabbath day? Read Hebrews chapter 8 or this most part ;
Hebrews 8:7-9 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
The laws of God follow the generation what kind of people,
Christ commandments is more detail than of Moises because generation now is more wicked and many inventions too, more advance = more evil..
you can feel to your own concience if you are on the real truth if your life changing and you can avoid doing bad things and does all the doctrines to your church profited a lot to you? You can answer it to yourself, but friendly advice open your heart and mind to brother eli but if you regret sorry for you too…We hope that you stick on and your mind will be enlighten! Thanks…
to liloth, rowena & geh
Men and women are created equal. We were not created to keep silent in the church. We are second- class only in the traditions of men but not in the light of truth.
So stand and defend our right to preach… be a guide to the lost souls of men.
Do not just read. Think!
I don’t see how any of this is “sensible,” and my study of the Bible has *NOT* led me into the same understanding it somehow had led you. I’m sorry.
-=Scott
I feel sorry too that your study of the bible has *NOT* led you to understanding the true doctrine of Christ in the bible.
to Elaine,
You said, “Men and women are created equal.” Equal in what way? Where in the Bible can you prove that a woman is allowed to lead in the church?
Read Bro. Eli’s article carefully. He read in the Bible that it is God’s divine principle to not allow a woman to rule over man in the Church. What’s wrong with this principle? What’s wrong with God’s principle?
Anyway, SDAC is still not the true church regardless of Ellen’s gender. Why? Because she ‘founded’ her church instead of joining the one true church in the Bible.
A wise once said, “It is better to live in the ways of the LORD than to live in the ways of the world.”
Ellen White’s teachings I believe is one of the ways of the world since her teachings do not conform to what is written in the Bible specially about what women should do inside the Church.
I pity those people who in spite of a great FACT they still stick to those doctrines where in fact are only invented by malicious minds of FALSE preacher specially in our time and without Biblical basis. I just pray and hope that the the Almighty will have mercy on them and let the light of TRUTH shine in their hearts.
Thanks be to GOD for a sensible preacher (like Bro. Eli Soriano) HE sent in the midst of many FALSE preachers.
TO GOD BE THE GLORY!!!
eric j.
As for my small expirience in this life. Women bore the mirror of man. Its a reflection of man way of educating and caring of women. If you are a bad person it will reflect to a women decisioning if the female are weak. But once you meet a believer no matter your act will not results to female. Drawing back to female make male downfall. If we are well educated by our parents in God we may not encounter in life that opinion of others that women are more sinners. We must look to other side that God also created them; theres a wisdom in that, that its for you to find out. Female is like a Glass that can easily break. You can fool, cheat, etc. But one thing in this comment is God made them also to serve along with men. … TGBTG – before now and then till future 2come
To Otan
The equality of men and women begins at the highest possible level. God has no body therefore the very idea that God is male or female is absurd. We only refer to God using masculine terms simple for convenience’s sake, because hebrew has no neutral gender.
Yes, it is true Father comes first in Exodus 20:12 but it is also true that Mother comes first in Leviticus 19:3
There were 7 women out of 55 prophets in the bible.
Remember the matriarchs in the bible : Rebecca, Sarah, Rachel and Leah. Rebecca is considered one of the liberators of the people of Israel.
So, sister liloth, rowena & geh listen to elaine, We can speak in churches, It is God’s given right. We were just mistreated, misrepresented by the traditions of men.
Yes, be a guide to the lost soul of men
Scott said,
“For in the history of the Adventist Church, the visions that Ellen White had were first given to a man. But when this man refused to share what God had given him, God turned to Ellen and gave her the visions.
It was only after she began to share what God had shown her that this man was emboldened to step forward and share what God had shown him as well.”
But is it really true that Ellen G. White’s visions were really
God-given??
What was one of her visions?
“One evening at the conference above mentioned [Topsham, Maine, 1846],
in the house of Mr. Curtis, and in the presence of Elder (Captain) Bates, who was yet undecided in regard to these manifestations, Mrs. White, while in vision, began to talk about the stars, giving a glowing description of the rosy-tinted belts which she saw across the surface of some planet, and added, ‘I see four moons.’ ‘Oh,’ said Elder Bates, ‘she is viewing Jupiter.’ Then, having made motions as though traveling through space, she began giving descriptions of belts and rings in their ever-varying beauty, and said, ‘I see eight moons.’ ‘She is describing Saturn.’ Next came a description of Uranus with his six moons, then a wonderful description of the ‘opening heavens.'”
This was sufficient, and accomplished its purpose. Elder Bates was convinced, and became a firm believer in the visions.
But what are the facts? Mrs. White simply saw what her companions at the time generally believed and talked about. Had God given her that view about the planets and the number of moons to each he would have given her the correct number in each case, and thus she would have revealed what astronomers at the time did not know, but later discovered. This would have proved her vision to be of God. But,
blundering as she did, proves that the Lord was not in it.
This vision was like all the rest of her revelations; she simply saw what others the time had studied out and believed and talked about. Whether she pretended to see all this to win Elder Bates, or whether she reallyimagined she saw it, the fact remains that her statement of the number of moons to each planet was incorrect, and not in harmony with what we know to be the truth about them. Here cold facts which can not be denied prove her revelations to be wholly unreliable.
Here are the facts as compiled by E.E. Frank, of New York City: “Jupiter has nine moons instead of four; Saturn has ten moons instead of eight; and Uranus has only four moons instead of six.”These discoveries were made as follows:
Jupiter. In 1892, Bernard, at Lick Observatory, discovered the fifth moon of Jupiter;
in 1905, Perrine, at the same observatory, discovered the sixth and seventh;
in 1908, Melotte discovered the eighth at
Greenwich; and in 1914, Nickolson, at the Lick Observatory, discovered the ninth.
Saturn. In 1899, Prof. W.H. Pickering discovered the ninth moon of Saturn, and in 1905, the tenth.
Uranus. Sir Wm. Herschel discovered the two largest moons of Uranus, and supposed he had seen four others, which was believed up to 1851, five years after Mrs. White’s vision. In 1851, Lassell positively proved that Uranus has only four moons.”
If this is really of God, would God show a false revelation to His messenger?
and its also amusing how Mrs.White had used her vision to avoid persecutions like what happened in australia,
“After a time, on account of their aggressive ways and their strong denunciations of those who observe Sunday, a few Seventh-day Adventists were imprisoned for short periods here and there for working on Sunday, and finally two of their publishing houses, one in London and one in Basil, Switzerland, were closed out for disregarding Sunday laws and laws regulating the hours of female labor.
This set Mrs. White to thinking, and she finally had a revelation directing her people, the world over, to refrain from work on Sunday wherever the law requires it and prosecutions were threatened. They have all readily obeyed. But, following this instruction, how, then,
can they ever be persecuted for Sunday work?
In Australia there was a law requiring them to close their publishing house in Melbourne on Sunday. For three Sundays, after having had notice, they did not obey. Then they were threatened with arrest. What now? Did they brave the law and take the penalty as they had always said they would? Mrs. White, their divine oracle, fortunately was
right there. Did she counsel martyrdom? Oh, no! She immediately produced a revelation directing them to obey the law, close the plant on Sunday, and devote the day to the Lord in religious work just as Sunday-keepers do.”—
–Life of Mrs. E.G. White
Seventh-day Adventist Prophet
Her False Claims Refuted
By D.M. Canright
Published in 1919
i suggest Mr.scott to study more about your preacher….
to Scott Fogg….
I really cant stomach what you had just said…
Brother Eli is not interpreting the Bible…He’s just reading the verses for you to understand…because I can see that you are being blinded by your present group in which you belong with…
You’ve also mention that…
Why would you want to limit God by effectively taking away half His congregation and relegating them to the kitchen?
You see..this line of questioning shows how poor your understanding of the Holy scriptures is… Im sorry to say this Scott…God created us all…you cannot question God why we are created like this? Can you create a man or a woman? If God created women for His own reasons…Is it good to just accept it?? When you were born by your parents, did your parents had a hand on it whether you could be a man or a woman?? Can parents make a boy or a girl if they wanted it??
Back now to your question…are you implying that you are wiser than God SCOTT??? that you interpret that the explanation of brother Eli is limiting God that He is taking away half of the congregation to the kitchen??
And in the house of God, if you were relegated to the kitchen by God, can you not serve God righteous in the kitchen??can you not clean the toilet righteous in the house of God SCOTT??
You see SCOTT…one thing Ive learned from the Bible through the teachings of brother Eli… OBEY GOD BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRIMARY DUTY OF MEN…..let us follow all HIS instructions from the Holy scriptures…That is why it is written for us…to read and understand it…Brother Eli is reading it for us to understand it…He is not interpreting it for us..He is reading it for us…
You see SCOTT..you do not have to interpret the Bible…The Bible says…READ!!….because BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO READS AND DOES ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN ON IT…
You see SCOTT…you need a lot to review for your understanding of the holy scriptures…I hope you continue monitoring this website…this is for your own good..this is an unsolicited advice..but I have to impart this from you…because the Bible says..THOSE WHO KNEW GOOD AND NOT DO IT, IS A SIN…..I know that it is good to share you some thoughts, and if I do….It is for my salvation…
I hope I have not offended you SCOTT…
a christian friend,
Rafi
(Response to Response #21)
Hello Gwen,
You can’t convince me with your logic…
—————————-
YOUR POINT 1:
“The equality of men and women begins at the highest possible level. God has no body therefore the very idea that God is male or female is absurd. We only refer to God using masculine terms simple for convenience’s sake, because hebrew has no neutral gender.”
You seem to imply that men and women are equal because God, who is their creator, is genderless. Granting for the sake of argument that God is genderless, does that make men and women equal? Never! Because human is not God and God is not human. Although man is created on God’s likeness and image, but still, God IS NOT man. Why draw a conclusion that men and women are equal based on God’s gender?
But is God really a genderless being? That’s another topic.
—————————-
YOUR POINT 2:
“Yes, it is true Father comes first in Exodus 20:12 but it is also true that Mother comes first in Leviticus 19:3”
What’s actually your point here?
———————————–
YOUR POINT 3:
“There were 7 women out of 55 prophets in the bible.
Remember the matriarchs in the bible : Rebecca, Sarah, Rachel and Leah. Rebecca is considered one of the liberators of the people of Israel.
So, sister liloth, rowena & geh listen to elaine, We can speak in churches, It is God’s given right. We were just mistreated, misrepresented by the traditions of men.”
Are those women from the Bible that you mentioned also leaders of Israel as Ellen G. White a leader of SDAC? Are those women prophets as Ellen G. White claimed to be? Are those women leaders in Israel? No, they’re not!
You used a weak analogy for a “red herring”. The real issue here is “Is Ellen G. White, being a woman, allowed by God to preside or lead in the church according to the Bible?”
Of course, women can also serve the LORD as men can but the issue here is the question whether a woman is allowed to LEAD the church, not simply as to SERVE.
Have you pondered the many verses that bro. Eli read regarding this issue? Are you against what is written there in those verses of the Bible? Remember, bro. Eli only read those verses; he did not interpret them.
“Yes, be a guide to the lost soul of men”
Yes, but in order to be a guide to the truth, you must be guided first by the truth in the Bible.
————————
Remember this:
The whole Bible is the ultimate truth. Let’s stick to the Bible. And if anyone is counter arguing the truth that the Bible says based on his own philosophy (or vision?), let’s still stick to the Bible because the Bible is the ultimate truth.
If the Bible’s verses seem to be contradicting each others, let’s ask the seer. Let’s ask it to bro. Eli, and the Bible itself will answer.
To Elaine,
Thanks for the concern. But I believe you are missing my point. I do think but not with my mind alone… I use my heart as well in listening. You will find truth if you use your heart as well (Proverbs 22:17 – Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge.) In leading, if you place power in your head, you will be corrupt. But if you think of yourself as a servant, then that’s the true essence of leadership. This is shown to us by Jesus Christ in Luke 22:27 “For which is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am in the midst of you as he that serveth.
I advise that you read the bible for you to find the Truth. Seek and you shall find for it says in Isaiah 34:16 “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”
I’m not a blind follower. I listen… then I find if it is indeed written… and I asked for guidance from Him to help me understand.
To Otan, I am glad to tell you that we are given a chance to express and be heard in our church. If not, then why am I given the chance to express myself in this blog? (Don’t you think so?) We are never mistreated by our men. And we are truly respected and cared for in our church. We have never been beaten nor been hurt with their fist. Because our men fears God. We are also given chance to bring the Words of God to His people… but we never dare change or vary from the bible’s content (Deut. 12:32). And I believe we agree on this matter. And I also believe that the bible will not contradict it’s content… and I also believe that Bro. Eli is indeed the seer… and I never ever think of contradicting what is written in the bible. Brother, please read again what I have written for it seems you misunderstood my point. I just pointed out that keeping silent has its benefit too. But it doesn’t mean I will not speak (look… I used the adjective incessantly. Meaning, keeping silent compared to talking too much is better. Anything that is too much than what is required is not healthy). Proverbs 10:19 “In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
I rest my case.
to elaine post #16
So stand and defend our right to preach… be a guide to the lost souls of men.
Do not just read. Think!
You know if human thinking is the one you will follow you will mislead for sure ;
Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have i found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
So if you don’t want to forget or loose words this is the exact guide for faith to salvation no more no less but the bible, so if the bible was already provided by God and the most complete book for God seekers what you should do therefore you have to read.
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Do not interpret by yourself, all the verses is like a puzzle that form and given by God to his messenger. And we’re glad we found “he” that readeth, not “she” that readeth.
It is no question that women can preach, in our Church women can preach also we have many2 workers women but not a top leader or compare to EGW it is written in the bible woman cannot be a leader in the church, but it does not follow that their voice will not heard nor suggestions definitely they have great help to propulgate the word of God, bro eli explain and put so many proof verses for you to read in several posts,we hope that it will enlighten you SDA readers! Thanks for dropping by hope we see you all again in this blog! To God be the Glory!
Dear me. Doesn’t the fact that the verses cited by bro eli are so amazingly backward and bigoted scare any of you? Even a little? This is the kind of stuff that is cited from the koran as reason to make women wear burkas and be murdered for marrying the wrong man.
This kind of stuff is in the bible (and the koran) because it was written in a different time. The old testament was written in the bronze age for goodness sake. These are outdated values. It is the 21st century. Women ARE leaders. Women ARE men’s equals in every modern society.
What I find so hard to comprehend is the lack of questioning form you all. You do not question that treating women as less than men may be wrong. why can’t you consider that the bible may be wrong?
Maybe, just maybe it was written by men?
To otan
Can you cite a verse/s uttered by Jesus Christ that prohibit women to speak in the church? or to keep silent in the church? or for a woman not to be guide and light for those who cannot see the truth of the gospel?
Thank you!
To Gwen (Response #28),
I did not say, and it is not my belief, that women are prohibited to speak in the church, nor did I say they should keep silent. And I did not said that a woman cannot be a guide and light.
Why would I say that? In our church MCGI, we have sisters that preach! They can deliver the topics to the brethren that Bro. Eli taught to them. It is not our belief that women (the physical women) should keep silent and cannot preach. But not anyone of our women sisters is a leader or a minister or a president. Why? Is it because we mistreat them? No, we do not mistreat them! We are just following God’s principle that a woman should not rule over a man IN THE CHURCH (see this blog article for supporting verses).
To inside man:
Inside man: Do not interpret by yourself, all the verses is like a puzzle that form and given by God to his messenger. And we’re glad we found “he” that readeth, not “she” that readeth.
reply: Jesus is the only Rabbi! No one else! beware of those person after Christ who claim directly/indirectly that He knows the way and that He is the messenger. If you are very clear of Jesus being your only teacher you will never follow anyone
Similary if you are now a light to yourself, you will never pay attention to anyone in the light of truth. (Jesus- is the way)
When your mind is very clear because of Jesus, it needs no more authority, but when you are in misery, in turmoil, then yes, you look to another for help, So the poison and corruption begins when you look to one person as your authority
Since you heard Jesus already so be a master and pupil of yourself.
to gwen,
Thanks for your reply, did it sound to you that I’m making bro. Eli a Rabbi did bro. eli want himself to call a pastor?most reverend etc. definitely not!
So that’s why we call him brother ( in faith ) because we know the teaching of Jesus Christ and we know that he is a vessel only to propulgate the word of God and he never raised/claimed to up himself above Jesus Christ, with all the brethren in this forum you can ask them, for you enlightment..
So that’s why i’m emphasized “he that readeth” he is reading the word of God especially our Lord Jesus Christ teachings and not self explanation like others do, because it is a complete book for God seekers..
How about your high ranking servants? how do you addressing their names? is it biblical?
You wrote ” When your mind is very clear because of Jesus, it needs no more authority, but when you are in misery, in turmoil, then yes, you look to another for help, So the poison and corruption begins when you look to one person as your authority”.
It’s sounds to me that Jesus doesn’t need authority of course His teachings don’t need any explanation of any authority, but it follows of course How should anyone can hear the word of God without the authority of His messenger to go beyond places without the servants, it’s illogical.
To Jenny,
” These are outdated values. It is the 21st century. Women ARE leaders. Women ARE men’s equals in every modern society.”
God made people upright; Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this is only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
So that’s why God.. Ecclesiastes 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be had already been; and God requireth that which is past.
Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the Lord, stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.But they said, We will not walk therein.
The bible cannot be wrong in all aspects and no contradiction! It contradict only to those blind/dark clouded mind, bro. eli can guarantee it and proven many times…To God be the Glory!
Liloth: Isaiah 34:16
“Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shallwant her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”
Sister, when prophet Isaiah uttered such words, does it include the book in the New Testament? Or He was just referring to the Book of the Lord in the OT?
Kindly clarify!
To Mr. Scott Fog
It is clearly no wonder why you are misled because you based your faith not with the teachings of the Holy Bible but with what you believe. And I quote:
“While I do believe there are things that women are better suited for (and likewise, men), to say that women have no place outside of the home is silly and insulting.” Unquote.
Also, bro. Eli never preached that the women have no place outside of the home hence your comment that, ” to say that women have no place place outside of the home is silly and insulting” is silly and insulting to all that seeks the truth based on the teachings of the Holy Bible.
You said: And I quote: ” But today, in the 21st century, there is no reason that a woman can’t lead”. Unquote.
Where in the Holy Bible you get that reasoning? Also, we are discussing about women to lead or not in the true church of God! Your faith is merely based on your assumptions! Bro. Eli never preached anything based on his assumptions but on what are commanded and written in the Holy Bible.
You really have all the reasons to say: And I quote: ” I’m sorry”. Unquote.
Reply to 32 Gwen: If you are concerned with the time element… I will give you a verse that supports Isaiah 34:16 and it is found in the new testament –
John 5:39 “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:and they are they which testify of me.”
Attn: elaine
I will not wonder why you reacted such. You need to read the Bible, keep reading articles of brother eli and listen to his programs. You will see the difference. (and try to be open because it seems your close, araso?)
i coudn’t find a sensible argument using Balaam’s example just to point out that God will appoint a woman to be leader of His people.
I think God use the donkey to ridicule Balaam, to put him to shame regarding his foolishness.
besides, God surely won’t spoke through Mrs. Ellen G. White because He had spoken through His Son in this last days (heb. 1:1-2) and we belong to the last days.
Bro. Eli, correct me if i’m wrong.
just my opinion.
To liloth
You wrote: If you are concerned with the time element… I will give you a verse that supports Isaiah 34:16 and it is found in the new testament –
John 5:39 “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:and they are they which testify of me.”
reply: That scriptures quoted in John 5:39 refer to what/which? the OT or the NT or both?
To geh:
you wrote: I will not wonder why you reacted such. You need to read the Bible, keep reading articles of brother eli and listen to his programs. You will see the difference. (and try to be open because it seems your close, araso?)
reply: Nyee! My gosh! ate elaine nga eh super open-minded na. Perhaps that statement of yours is dedicated sau.
Scott, how can a woman be marginalized in a society where the rule of God prevails? Maybe, you are talking about what your women feels inside your woman-established church, originating from Ellen White’s adulterated vision.
In the ever-changing fashion as a way of life in human history, we cannot help but notice that women become stubborn, consciously or unconsciously, and now is fighting for their right as marginalized sector of the society. This is one of the reasons why things, including head covers, become an issue to them whether to follow it or not. Even in churches made by men, they want to be the pope, the pastor, or the leader.
Now, should the essence of marginalized women was imparted this way:
“To give women a fair chance to learn the doctrine and be able to follow it accordingly, then, our lives would have been better off!”
What women Christian should portray today is not to lead Christian men but rather be running side by side with Christian men in fighting the good fight of faith and doing the good works provided through the law of Christ!
You can out rightly differentiate if a woman is a true Christian, by way of her actions, taste in clothing, values, even her personality.
There is no EGO in her. She knows that she is a servant too like men, but then again, she knows where to place herself. That is because she knows the doctrine.
Even Jesus knows where to place himself:
Philippians 2:
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It is very ridiculous to learn that Ellen White would preach the values of humility when she herself does not live by the law of faith in terms of leadership! More so, when men like Scott would try to appeal to the people by using statements that appeals to the emotional senses of people, especially women, who have no background in the doctrines.
Let me prove it by stating his comment: “…When Jesus and His apostles were preaching, it was in a very different world. Can you imagine if a woman had risen up to lead the church in 30 AD? It would have been too subversive for any culture or religion to handle at the time. The church would have been ignored or destroyed entirely. Which is why you have Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles downplaying the role of the woman in the church. But today, in the 21st century, there is no reason that a woman can’t lead. Shouldn’t the Christian church be empowering all of its members? God doesn’t change, but society does. That’s only logical. And we see God working in new and exciting ways every day. Why would you want to limit God by effectively taking away half His congregation and relegating them to the kitchen? I don’t see how any of this is “sensible,” and my study of the Bible has *NOT* led me into the same understanding it somehow had led you.”
He wants them to be like him, to be a hen peck! What is noticeable in his comment is that he uses the pronoun, I, when he speaks of a sensible explanation. It is because Scott led to what he believes in coming from his own understanding and analysis like what the spirit of Ellen White has passed to him.
Comparing from what St. Paul said about the last supper: 1 Cor 11:17(ESV) Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. Finally, 1 Cor 11: 16 (KJV) said, If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.
I say Ellen White and her cohorts are all contentious.
SCOTT,
1. You said, “But today, in the 21st century, there is no reason that a woman can’t lead. Shouldn’t the Christian church be empowering all of its members? God doesn’t change, but society does. ”
a. You know, God requires that which is past.
Ecclesiastes 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
So when in the past:
Proverbs 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
Psalms 145:12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
…there should be no difference now.
…TO THE SONS OF MAN/MEN. NOT TO HELEN G WHITE who is a WOMAN.
b. Even if society changes, christians are admonished to be not conformed to this world.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
c. There is actually a reason why women can’t lead RELIGIOUSLY over man
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2. You said, “I don’t see how any of this is “sensible,” and my study of the Bible has *NOT* led me into the same understanding it somehow had led you. I’m sorry.”
I do not wonder because:
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
and because:
Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
unto…
Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
…to His saints. Where?
2 Corinthians 1:1 ¶Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
…THE CHURCH OF GOD.
NOT THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH.
ELAINE,
You said, “We were not created to keep silent in the church.”
I say, read this again please.
1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Gwen,
1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
JENNY,
1. You said, “It is the 21st century. Women ARE leaders. Women ARE men’s equals in every modern society.”
Let me paste what I wrote to SCOTT.
a. You know, God requires that which is past.
Ecclesiastes 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
So when in the past:
Proverbs 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
Psalms 145:12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
…there should be no difference now.
b. Even if society changes, christians are admonished to be not conformed to this world.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
2. You said, “You do not question that treating women as less than men may be wrong. why can’t you consider that the bible may be wrong? Maybe, just maybe it was written by men?”
a. Again:
Proverbs 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
Psalms 145:12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
b. God’s words can’t be wrong to those who understand and find knowledge.
Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
c. And also:
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
d. People of God do not question Him.
Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
e. Instead, people of God fear Him, and keep His commandments, for that is their whole duty as man.
Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
f. Why?
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
GWEN,
You asked, “Sister, when prophet Isaiah uttered such words, does it include the book in the New Testament? Or He was just referring to the Book of the Lord in the OT? ”
Which is the book of the Lord? Does not the book of the Lord include the OT and the NT? What does prophecy means? Does it not entail something in the FUTURE?
Anyways, if you are not satisfied with that, let us read what the apostle Paul wrote:
1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
How about the apostle John?
Revelation 1:3 ¶Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
GWEN,
Here’s more.
1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Verses are flowing.
To Jet
You said, “We were not created to keep silent in the church.”
I say, read this again please.
1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
reply: Aha! so it is paul who commanded us to keep silent in the church and not Jesus christ.
*********
Jet: Which is the book of the Lord? Does not the book of the Lord include the OT and the NT? What does prophecy means? Does it not entail something in the FUTURE?
reply: Does it include the book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13, II samuel 1:18), book of Jehu (II Chronicles 20:34), Sayings of the Seers (II Chronicles 33:19), Book of Enoch (Jude 1:14) etc. etc. ?
What about Deborah, who became the judge of Israel? She’s not fit to become a ruler regardless of her ability?
46 Gwen
1. You said, “reply: Aha! so it is paul who commanded us to keep silent in the church and not Jesus christ.”
I think you haven’t noticed the other verse I showed you.
1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Whose commandments are they really? Aren’t they of the Lord? Or are you one of William ang ADVENTIST777 and WILLIAM who do not believe in Paul?
2. You asked, “reply: Does it include the book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13, II samuel 1:18), book of Jehu (II Chronicles 20:34), Sayings of the Seers (II Chronicles 33:19), Book of Enoch (Jude 1:14) etc. etc. ?”
Even if these books were lost, is the bible lacking in wisdom? Can you point out anything good, which is not included in the bible now? Is there anything needed for man’s salvation from the punishment to come, which is not included in the bible?
If you can tell me one, maybe, you just haven’t searched and read it.
Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
to jet:
Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
reply: In that “book of the Lord”, does it include the epistles of Paul? can you give me proofs that his epistles are included and within the teachings of the prophets, of Jesus christ, the apostles and other brethen? What if I can show you that He disobeyed Jesus christ, that he is also a liar, a self-promoter, hypocrite etc. etc , will you still believe in him?
If I invite you to have one on one discussion, can you stand on your ground and defend him?
Jet: Even if these books were lost, is the bible lacking in wisdom? Can you point out anything good, which is not included in the bible now? Is there anything needed for man’s salvation from the punishment to come, which is not included in the bible?
reply: You said: “even if those books were lost”, who told you that “those books were lost? as a matter of fact, we can still quote from those scriptures until now.
If the entire Bible is really inspired by God and not only compiled by the Catholics then those books should be in the Bible of today. It must be there because those are also the words of God. The presence of those scriptures are important, why?
“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book ”
If God is not in control in compilation of those manuscript to become the Bible of today, then who’s in control?
49 Gwen,
WILLIAM, ADVENTIST777, OPEN-MINDED, and their COHORTS, have already spoken against Paul’s epistles. Let me paste what I said to them.
1. The fact that ADVENTIST777 when he prayed in the blog DOES NOT UNDERSTAND the verses in Matthew 6:5-6, said by Jesus (whom they say they believe in – though I doubt it), makes no wonder why he DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what Paul wrote (whom they do not believe in).
Who are hypocrites now? The chameleons?
Look also how he admitted committing mistakes between AUTHOR and WRITER. Then he said, “to err is human”.
IF YOUR FAITH HAD ONLY TAUGHT YOU THAT, YOU WOULDN’T HAVE MADE THAT KIND OF MISTAKE. Not only that MRS WHITE COMMITTED THE MISTAKE, SHE ALSO allowed HER MEMBERS TO BELIEVE IN MARTIN LUTHER when he suggested that it was APOLLOS who wrote the book of HEBREWS.
Arguing with you using Paul’s writings is like arguing with a muslim who uses his koran while I use the bible.
2. Your same-feathered ADVENTIST777 said, ““So, The new covenant is not a new and different law” #21
I said, “when an SDA father gets his SDA son a NEW SHIRT from the store, he will tell his son, “Remember, this is NOT a new shirt. This is not a different shirt. This is still the SAME OLD SHIRT that I got for you years back. How silly!
See? NEW COVENANT IS NOT NEW??? So, NEW SHIRT IS THE SAME OLD SHIRT? Foolish!
3. I also asked him something. Maybe you can help him answer these. He was trying to imply that the one mentioned in Daniel 7:25 was Paul. Let me paste my questions:
ADVENTIST777 asked who’s he in Daniel 7:25.
I answered:
The clues can be read from the previous verses. v24 This is the other king, which shall rise after the ten kings; v24 the ten kings, which are the ten horns out of the fourth kingdom; v23 the fourth kingdom, which is the fourth beast; v17 the fourth beast which is one of the four kings; v17 the four kings, which are the four great beasts.
And you are implying that this ‘other king’ is Paul. If this is true, notice that this OTHER KING that rose after the 10 KINGS SUBDUED 3 KINGS. Now my questions:
a. v24 did Paul ever subdued ‘3 other kings’ or ‘3 other horns’?
b. v24 If he really did, who were these ‘3 kings’? And who were these ‘10 kings’ among Paul rose after?
c. v23 who this fourth beast, which is the fourth kingdom, v17 which is among the four kings, v24 from where the 10 kings/10 horns rose?
d. v3-7 And to make your WRONG INTERPRETATION complete, who were the 3 other beasts among the four great beasts, whom the fourth beast was diverse from?
Let us test your knowledge of the bible. If you cannot answer this concretely from the bible itself, then you are WRONGLY USING THE VERSE to discredit Paul.
ANSWER, MR ADVENTIST777!!!
TO 49 Gwen,
WILLIAM, ADVENTIST777, OPEN-MINDED, and their COHORTS, have already spoken against Paul’s epistles. Let me paste what I said to them.
1. The fact that ADVENTIST777 when he prayed in the blog DOES NOT UNDERSTAND the verses in Matthew 6:5-6, said by Jesus (whom they say they believe in – though I doubt it), makes no wonder why he DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what Paul wrote (whom they do not believe in).
Who are hypocrites now? The chameleons?
Look also how he admitted committing mistakes between AUTHOR and WRITER. Then he said, “to err is human”.
IF YOUR FAITH HAD ONLY TAUGHT YOU THAT, YOU WOULDN’T HAVE MADE THAT KIND OF MISTAKE. Not only that MRS WHITE COMMITTED THE MISTAKE, SHE ALSO allowed HER MEMBERS TO BELIEVE IN MARTIN LUTHER when he suggested that it was APOLLOS who wrote the book of HEBREWS.
Arguing with you using Paul’s writings is like arguing with a muslim who uses his koran while I use the bible.
2. Your same-feathered ADVENTIST777 said, ““So, The new covenant is not a new and different law” #21
I said, “when an SDA father gets his SDA son a NEW SHIRT from the store, he will tell his son, “Remember, this is NOT a new shirt. This is not a different shirt. This is still the SAME OLD SHIRT that I got for you years back. How silly!
See? NEW COVENANT IS NOT NEW??? So, NEW SHIRT IS THE SAME OLD SHIRT? Foolish!
3. I also asked him something. Maybe you can help him answer these. He was trying to imply that the one mentioned in Daniel 7:25 was Paul. Let me paste my questions:
ADVENTIST777 asked who’s he in Daniel 7:25.
I answered:
The clues can be read from the previous verses. v24 This is the other king, which shall rise after the ten kings; v24 the ten kings, which are the ten horns out of the fourth kingdom; v23 the fourth kingdom, which is the fourth beast; v17 the fourth beast which is one of the four kings; v17 the four kings, which are the four great beasts.
And you are implying that this ‘other king’ is Paul. If this is true, notice that this OTHER KING that rose after the 10 KINGS SUBDUED 3 KINGS. Now my questions:
a. v24 did Paul ever subdued ‘3 other kings’ or ‘3 other horns’?
b. v24 If he really did, who were these ‘3 kings’? And who were these ‘10 kings’ among Paul rose after?
c. v23 who this fourth beast, which is the fourth kingdom, v17 which is among the four kings, v24 from where the 10 kings/10 horns rose?
d. v3-7 And to make your WRONG INTERPRETATION complete, who were the 3 other beasts among the four great beasts, whom the fourth beast was diverse from?
Let us test your knowledge of the bible. If you cannot answer this concretely from the bible itself, then you are WRONGLY USING THE VERSE to discredit Paul.
ANSWER, MR ADVENTIST777!!!
TO 50 GWEN,
Granting that it is true, can you quote ANYTHING from those scriptures that you are saying, which cannot be read in the bible today, which are vital to man’s salvation and knowledge of the truth?
49 Gwen,
You know, WILLIAM, ADVENTIST777, OPEN-MINDED, and their COHORTS, have already spoken against Paul’s epistles. Let me paste what I said to them.
1. The fact that ADVENTIST777 when he prayed in the blog DOES NOT UNDERSTAND the verses in Matthew 6:5-6, said by Jesus (whom they say they believe in – though I doubt it), makes no wonder why he DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what Paul wrote (whom they do not believe in).
Who are hypocrites now? The chameleons?
Look also how he admitted committing mistakes between AUTHOR and WRITER. Then he said, “to err is human”.
IF YOUR FAITH HAD ONLY TAUGHT YOU THAT, YOU WOULDN’T HAVE MADE THAT KIND OF MISTAKE. Not only that MRS WHITE COMMITTED THE MISTAKE, SHE ALSO allowed HER MEMBERS TO BELIEVE IN MARTIN LUTHER when he suggested that it was APOLLOS who wrote the book of HEBREWS.
Arguing with you using Paul’s writings is like arguing with a muslim who uses his koran while I use the bible.
2. Your same-feathered ADVENTIST777 said, ““So, The new covenant is not a new and different law” #21
I said, “when an SDA father gets his SDA son a NEW SHIRT from the store, he will tell his son, “Remember, this is NOT a new shirt. This is not a different shirt. This is still the SAME OLD SHIRT that I got for you years back. How silly!
See? NEW COVENANT IS NOT NEW??? So, NEW SHIRT IS THE SAME OLD SHIRT? Foolish!
3. I also asked him something. Maybe you can help him answer these. He was trying to imply that the one mentioned in Daniel 7:25 was Paul. Let me paste my questions:
ADVENTIST777 asked who’s he in Daniel 7:25.
I answered:
The clues can be read from the previous verses. v24 This is the other king, which shall rise after the ten kings; v24 the ten kings, which are the ten horns out of the fourth kingdom; v23 the fourth kingdom, which is the fourth beast; v17 the fourth beast which is one of the four kings; v17 the four kings, which are the four great beasts.
And you are implying that this ‘other king’ is Paul. If this is true, notice that this OTHER KING that rose after the 10 KINGS SUBDUED 3 KINGS. Now my questions:
a. v24 did Paul ever subdued ‘3 other kings’ or ‘3 other horns’?
b. v24 If he really did, who were these ‘3 kings’? And who were these ‘10 kings’ among Paul rose after?
c. v23 who this fourth beast, which is the fourth kingdom, v17 which is among the four kings, v24 from where the 10 kings/10 horns rose?
d. v3-7 And to make your WRONG INTERPRETATION complete, who were the 3 other beasts among the four great beasts, whom the fourth beast was diverse from?
Let us test your knowledge of the bible. If you cannot answer this concretely from the bible itself, then you are WRONGLY USING THE VERSE to discredit Paul.
ANSWER, MR ADVENTIST777!!!
Jet,
I am willing to prove in your face that the Anti-christ is indeed Paul of tarsus with his Pauline churches (catholics and all pauline mushrooms churches including yours.)
Do you want us to discuss one by one Daniel chapter 7 and its relevance to Revelation chapter 4-7?
Give me a written assurance first in this forum that ALL My ARTICLES during our converstation will be POSTED.
To tell you honestly Jet, I am not new in this thread! I know by heart and thought what I am saying! And I know Paul of Tarsus more than you knw him.
Ok, I am waiting for your written assurance!
Kahit saan forum dto sa blog ni bro. eli, HAHARAPIN KITA, Lumaban k lng ng parehas at wag kang DUWAG na di mo i po post mga articles ko laban sa iyo!
GWEN,
1. You said, “Do you want us to discuss one by one Daniel chapter 7 and its relevance to Revelation chapter 4-7?
YES! Of course! Go ahead. I am also after the truth. Let me know what you got. Prove that the one mentioned in Daniel 7 is Paul!
I may not know everything, but we have the bible as basis, right? Like the intro of the EDEBATE said:
Ecclesiastes 7:27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:
2. You said, “Give me a written assurance first in this forum that ALL My ARTICLES during our converstation will be POSTED.”
Ha? Compose yourself. I am not in charge with this forum. I am just one of the many participants here. I also had many replies/comments, which were not posted.
So, how can I give you the written assurance that you are asking? Are you suspecting me to be one of the members of this blog team? If yes, you must be…! Nevermind!
Pero dahil ba walang assurance akong maiibigay sayo, di ka na susubok? Kung ganun, di mo mahal ang kaluluwa ko. Kung sa tingin mo tama ka, subukan mo! Gawin mo lahat para maiparating sa akin ang katuwiran na inaakala mong tama kung concern ka sa kaligtasan ko.
3. You said, “Kahit saan forum dto sa blog ni bro. eli, HAHARAPIN KITA, Lumaban k lng ng parehas at wag kang DUWAG na di mo i po post mga articles ko laban sa iyo!”
Sinong duwag? Ayaw namin maging duwag kase:
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
We are not afraid. Even unto:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
But the thing is: Ang laban namin hindi sa laman at dugo.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Si San Esteban nga di naman natakot kahit pa mapatay sya eh dahil sa katuwiran na alam nya. PERO DI SYA GUMANTI NG PAGPATAY DIN.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
But don’t get me wrong. We keep ourselves so that the wicked people touch us not.
1 John 5:18 ¶We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Pero, ang tagal ko nang naghihintay ng sagot sa tanong ko eh. Kay ADVENTIST777 pa lng eh. HAHARAPIN DIN KITA kahit di tayo magkaharap.
Kelan ba ako di lumaban nang di parehas sayo? Kelan ko ba di pinost yng mga articles mo dito? Eh hindi nga ako marunong paano magkaroon ng blog eh. ANO KA BA NAMAN? OK KA LANG?
Gwen,
Just a correction. I mean:
Kelan ba ako lumaban nang di parehas sayo?
Not:
Kelan ba ako di lumaban nang di parehas sayo?
I hope I could read your answers to my questions in post #54.
Thanks.
Scott and some of your supporters, women and even many men, no matter how good and able, simply can or can not be leaders because it is not the will of GOD, To be a part of the true church does not need that one be a leader anyway. To each his own gift. 1CORINTHIANS7:7-…But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 1CORINTHIANS12:28-And GOD hath set some in the church, first apostles,secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers…12:29-Are all apostles? are all prophets?are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? So if you will listen to Bro Eli, you will realize that women were given roles to play in the church, in the same way that even many men are not given the chance to be a leader. Each has an assignment and mission to do. There is no descrimin ation, it is shall we say, a choice by GOD, like giving the big responsibility and duty to Bro Eli to go on spreading the TRUTH as the most vocal, no-nonsense, steadfast and most sensible preacher of our time. PRAISE AND GLORY TO GOD.
Jdg 5:7 The rulers ceased in Israel, they ceased, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel.